Repashy Calcium Plus for montane neonates?

[pamnsam94]

Specifically, I'm wanting to know if anyone has used it on baby quads. If so, what were the results and what frequency did you use. However, if you used it with other montane species that would be good to know too.

With the 14 baby quads I hatched (about 3 weeks ago), 10 have only been supplemented with it for one feeding (all the fruit flies provided that day were lightly coated) and 4 of the babies got it on two days (time between those two feedings was one week). No edema in any of the babies yet and no apparent difference between the 4 compared to the 10.

For a regular routine, I'm trying to decide whether to give their feeders a light dusting of Calcium Plus one, two, three, or four times a month in addition to pure calcium products that I'm currently using (Repashy's Calcium no D3 and Sticky Tongue Farms' Miner-All outdoor formula with no D3). I understand that Repashy's Calcium Plus has some of the lowest levels of D3 and preformed vitamin A of any supplement out there, but I don't want to overdo it. At the same time, I want to give them enough preformed vitamin A to optimize their growth.

I'm most concerned about giving the babies too much D3. I wish Repashy or someone else had product that had no D3 and at the same time, had the low levels of preformed vitamin A that Calcium Plus has. If there was a supplement that contained very low levels of preformed vitamin A and no D3, that would sure be convienient because I believe montane neonates can make enough D3 with proper UVB exposure but still benefit from small amounts of preformed vitamin A. Of course, whether preformed vitamin A is needed for certain or all species still needs to be determined.

Perry

 

[JoeG]

My quads are 6 months old & I have had them since they were 3 months. I use the repashy once a week for them & they are developing fine. I know its a short time frame to draw any conclusions so I hope this helps.

 

[pamnsam94]

My quads are 6 months old & I have had them since they were 3 months. I use the repashy once a week for them & they are developing fine. I know its a short time frame to draw any conclusions so I hope this helps.

Have you ever seen any signs of edema with them, even a slight edema? Do you use a UVB lamp with them or do they receive time outdoors? I'm basically trying to find out if they get only dietary D3 from the Repashy Calcium Plus supplement or if yours get to manufacture some of their own D3 through UVB exposure.

So, Repashy's Calcium Plus 4 times a month since they were 3 months old and no problems? Good to know. Do you have any pics of them taken at approximately monthly intervals since you first aquired them? I would love to see them. At least it would be great to see pics of them when you first got them and some current pics. I'm sure others would love to see pics too. Finally, have you raised young quads before using different supplements (which ones?) and if so, did you experience any problems with those quads? Finally, have you noticed a different growth rate, etc. with your current quads compared to any previous young quads you might have raised using different supplements?

Thanks,
Perry

 

[Allen Repashy]

subscribed!

Combined feedback on experiences like this, will in the long term, help everyone figure out what works well for more sensitive species. Right now, four-six months is about as long as the folks here have been testing the product with these species, so we have quite a ways to go before we can compile enough data to come up with a definitive answer. My guess is that it will take two years!

 

[JoeG]

Have you ever seen any signs of edema with them, even a slight edema? Do you use a UVB lamp with them or do they receive time outdoors? I'm basically trying to find out if they get only dietary D3 from the Repashy Calcium Plus supplement or if yours get to manufacture some of their own D3 through UVB exposure.

So, Repashy's Calcium Plus 4 times a month since they were 3 months old and no problems? Good to know. Do you have any pics of them taken at approximately monthly intervals since you first aquired them? I would love to see them. At least it would be great to see pics of them when you first got them and some current pics. I'm sure others would love to see pics too. Finally, have you raised young quads before using different supplements (which ones?) and if so, did you experience any problems with those quads? Finally, have you noticed a different growth rate, etc. with your current quads compared to any previous young quads you might have raised using different supplements?

Thanks,
Perry

I'm pretty sure edema takes longer than a few short months to develop. When I raised my jacksons, they got it slightly & I backed off the supplements completely until it went away & went back to only twice a month I think if I was raising any montane younger than 3 months, I would only supplement once a month.

 

[pamnsam94]

subscribed!

Combined feedback on experiences like this, will in the long term, help everyone figure out what works well for more sensitive species. Right now, four-six months is about as long as the folks here have been testing the product with these species, so we have quite a ways to go before we can compile enough data to come up with a definitive answer. My guess is that it will take two years!

Agreed! Glad to have you chime in Allen. I love Calcium Plus for the dart frogs I raise, but we definitely do need more data on its use with montane chameleons. I was thinking of supplementing with Calcium Plus twice a month with these quad babies, but now I'm considering four times a month. Better knowledge would certainly be gained if people performed controlled experiments, dividing their clutches up into groups and supplementing each group differently. However, speaking for myself and probably for many others, I always try to give what I think is best to all the babies. I want all of them to thrive. Problem is, comparisons can't be made that way and if a problem develops, then we run the risk of messing up an entire clutch, sometimes irreversibly with permanent organ damage.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Just my .02 but so far I've been using the Repashy with Medium D3. The neonate Mt Merus I had were doing fine with a dusting once a week.

They had a UvB 5.0 bulb. No real sunlight. Watered and fed daily with positive signs of growth.


The Adults are given the same but also given natural sunlight once a week for 3-4 hours. Their diet consists of multiple types of food items but the only supplement I dust with currently is the Medium D3 with calcium once a week.

 

[pamnsam94]

I'm pretty sure edema takes longer than a few short months to develop. When I raised my jacksons, they got it slightly & I backed off the supplements completely until it went away & went back to only twice a month I think if I was raising any montane younger than 3 months, I would only supplement once a month.

Edema can be caused in chameleons by only one overdose of vitamin A (I believe that was first shown by the vet (forgot his name) working in cooperation with John Annis (sp?), first editor I believe of the Chameleon Information Network back in the early 90s. It can also be caused by a single overdose of D3. Back in the 90s, I hatched a clutch of johnstoni. For the first few weeks, they did great on houseflies I raised. No signs of edema whatsoever. Then, I made the mistake of feeding the neonates commercially bred crickets the day I received the cricket order. I should have at least let the crickets clear out their guts and gutloaded them first. In any case, the very next day, all the neonates had edema. I strongly believe that the cricket feed the supplier used had high levels of D3 (possibly preformed vitamin A too) and that caused the edema. I couldn't reverse the edema (I think permanent organ damage was done), their growth was stunted and they all ended up dying within a month. Triceros johnstoni seems to be one of the most, if not the most, vitamin sensitive species I've ever kept and bred. Fast forward to about 2002 when I had a gravid WC melleri lay 70 eggs. Most of them hatched. The neonates seemed strong from the start. Boy do I sure wish I could have that chance again, especially since I think I know a lot more now about the whole D3/vitamin A issue. I housed them outdoors for two and a half months and fed them a wide variety of field sweepings (nothing else) and the only supplement I gave was pure calcium. They grew like crazy, no signs of any edema at all. After the weather got too hot to house them outside, I moved them inside, and for the first time, I fed them commercially bred crickets. Within 3 days, a good number of them developed edema, even though I used no supplements. In that instance too, I believe organ damage/malfunction was caused by the feed the supplier fed his crickets (too much D3 I believe). Some of the edemas on some individuals were reversible when I changed feeders, but other babies retained their edemas. To end that sad story, all of the individuals I kept (some past the one year mark) were severely stunted and eventually died. I did sell some at a reptile show during the time I was keeping them outside and before I fed them crickets, but I don't know the fate of those individuals. Hopefully, they fared much better than the ones I kept.

Regarding your Jackson's chameleons, were you supplementing neonates 4 times a month with Repashy's Calcium Plus when they got edemas or were you using different supplements? What age were they when they got edemas? Also, did they have access to UVB and if so, what source? In your case, the overdose may have led to organ (liver or kidney) malfunction rather than permanent damage. Once permanent damage occurs, what I have experienced is stunted chameleons leading to premature deaths. Edema of course has many causes but organ malfunction or permanent damage caused by vitamin or mineral overdose is a common cause.

 

[pamnsam94]

Just my .02 but so far I've been using the Repashy with Medium D3. The neonate Mt Merus I had were doing fine with a dusting once a week.

They had a UvB 5.0 bulb. No real sunlight. Watered and fed daily with positive signs of growth.


The Adults are given the same but also given natural sunlight once a week for 3-4 hours. Their diet consists of multiple types of food items but the only supplement I dust with currently is the Medium D3 with calcium once a week.

The neonate Mt Merus you had were doing fine with a dusting once a week? Did you not keep any to see if they would reached adulthood? When you say they were doing fine, besides showing positive signs of growth, did you ever see any signs of edema at all, even in the slightest?

 

[Hoj]

I have used repashy once a week for quads, from 1m to 2yrs over a period of about 4 months now and all is well ( KOW )

 

[OldChamKeeper]

The neonate Mt Merus you had were doing fine with a dusting once a week? Did you not keep any to see if they would reached adulthood? When you say they were doing fine, besides showing positive signs of growth, did you ever see any signs of edema at all, even in the slightest?

If I had not had a brain fart and accidentially killed them I would have kept both to adulthood. As it is I'm waiting for my next Litter in around Aug. The preious was an unplanned pregnancy and took me by surprise.

They were doing fine as far as I saw. They were coming up on the two month mark before I blew it. Supercal MeD I think is the name of the supplement. I chose the Medium D3 since I knew my animals would get some Sunlight but not alot. So far the adults are doing quite well and yes I only dust once a week. I go to great effort to feed a variety to my critters all of which is gut loaded. Somewhere in that mess I'm doing things right.

 

[pamnsam94]

If I had not had a brain fart and accidentially killed them I would have kept both to adulthood. As it is I'm waiting for my next Litter in around Aug. The preious was an unplanned pregnancy and took me by surprise.

They were doing fine as far as I saw. They were coming up on the two month mark before I blew it. Supercal MeD I think is the name of the supplement. I chose the Medium D3 since I knew my animals would get some Sunlight but not alot. So far the adults are doing quite well and yes I only dust once a week. I go to great effort to feed a variety to my critters all of which is gut loaded. Somewhere in that mess I'm doing things right.

How did you blow it? What symptoms did they show before they died. Any edema at all? I think you might have understood me as thinking that dusting once a week might not be enough. On the contrary. What I meant was that I was pleasantly surprised and impressed that you were able to give any supplement with D3 as much as 4 times a month and not experience a problem with D3 overdose, especially since your chameleons already had access to UVB so they could manufacture their own D3. I would definitely guess that the calcium/medium D3 product would be too much D3 which would lead to organ malfunction/damage which can cause edema and even worse, death. I was specifically wanting to know if anyone was able to use Repashy's Calcium Plus (which, if I understand correctly, has some of the lowest D3 levels of any supplement on the market) as much as 4 times a month without experiencing any problems (including edema). I don't think I would consider using it any more often unless it had no D3. My guess is that most montanes can get all the D3 they need by exposure to most any UVB source (artificial or sunlight) as long as the UVB is in the correct (useable) range.