Reptile Show Chams, can anyone help ID and sex these?

[broderp]

I went to the Reptile Show this past weekend and managed to stand by ground and NOT buy a new Cham. THAT was a tough thing to do! The selection of Chams this years was rather poor when compared to my last Reptile show. Still, I managed to find several and even a few I had a hard time to not want to bring home.

I did really like a few, and would consider buying them, but would like to ask for the forums thoughts regarding Species, sex and age. I also listed the cost they were. I have the business cards for these three sellers so it is possible that I could potentially get one of them in the near future.

Any opinions and comments are welcome.


Baby Panther "Booyee"
Unknown Species "Panther" ???
Unknown Sex ???
Unknown hatch date ???
Purchase Candidate $250
This one was my favorite. He was very small and although the images show him somewhat green, he was actually a bluish color. The seller claims he was CB. He was one of several (4-5) Chams about this size for sale. He was actually the smallest, but the brightest colored. His siblings were not as colorful and some even downright brown to pinkish tan in color. Seller claimed all of them were males, but I wasn't so sure so I didn't buy him.

Baby Panther
Ambilobe Panther (Furcifer pardalis) ??
Male ???
Hatch Date: 9-27-16
Purchase Candidate $350 Male
This guy was blue with some reddish color to him. He was stressing out a bit when I took these pictures of the seller holding him. He was my second choice. The seller (a new seller in the business) stated he was CB and they had info on the lineage if I wanted to know it.

Vercussos
Giant Vercussos ???
Unknown Sex ???
Unknown Hatch Date ???
Purchase Candidate $80
This was an older Cham. He was fairly active the entire time I was there. His colors were very vivid green and brown. Not knowing much of the Species, I didn't get him. I believe he may have been WC.

 

[JacksJill]

To be able to tell the sex of the panthers you really need a good pic of them with their tail straight out behind them. You are looking for a small bulge behind the vent under the tail. Males have a thicker tail base than females.

 

[broderp]

To be able to tell the sex of the panthers you really need a good pic of them with their tail straight out behind them. You are looking for a small bulge behind the vent under the tail. Males have a thicker tail base than females.

Hmm...guess you can't do it based om color..i have a short video of the top one, .maybe I'll post it. It will how more. Since i don't have a frame of reference for a female vs male, the forum is my only hope. Lol

 

[Link]

Need a straight tail picture from the base unless you can tell me the locale and then sometimes you can do it by color

 

[absolutbill]

This may just be me, but personally I'd NEVER buy a cham at a show when the seller kept them in deli cups. You just have no clue how the rest of their life has been up to this point. Spend a little more and get one from the classifieds here, or a sponsor. I've actually stopped going to the shows (and they used to be a highlight for me), because of how upset I'd be over how they were kept. I will say that FL Chams always has a nice set up with cages at the shows, and it's really not that hard to do. Just my unsolicited 2 cents.

 

[timw1]

What does it say about the seller, who can't answer basic questions? I would not buy from them.

 

[broderp]

Here is the short video of the top Cham in my original post. There are a few other Chams from the same batch in the background.

 

[broderp]

This may just be me, but personally I'd NEVER buy a cham at a show when the seller kept them in deli cups. You just have no clue how the rest of their life has been up to this point. Spend a little more and get one from the classifieds here, or a sponsor. I've actually stopped going to the shows (and they used to be a highlight for me), because of how upset I'd be over how they were kept. I will say that FL Chams always has a nice set up with cages at the shows, and it's really not that hard to do. Just my unsolicited 2 cents.

Every show I have been to, this is the norm. The animals are in "deli cups". I was appalled at this when I first saw it, but everyone I spoke to and even many on the forum stated it was harmless. They ship Chams in deli cups, even the ones who advertise and sell here on the forum, so is it really that bad? It also prevents them from being handled directly, yet totally view-able. The one Cham that was out and being held, the seller make me clean my hands before allowing me to hold the Cham. So at least he was attempting to prevent spreading of infection.

What does it say about the seller, who can't answer basic questions? I would not buy from them.

The sellers lack of knowledge doesn't make a bad sell of a healthy cham to the buyer. I'm not sure which seller you are referring to, but the top seller said his breeder told him they were all boys, but he wasn't sure because some of them looked like females due to their colors.

Look at it this way, if a rich kid has a really nice car, but doesn't know its value or worth and I know its worth more than the sell price, does it make him a bad seller? Maybe, but it makes me a smart buyer to take advantage of the sale. Unfortunately in this case, I'm new to Panthers, so I am a un-educated buyer. Veiled Chams I know pretty well since I've had them before and lived and breathed that breed for 4 years. I was able to tell the health and sex of the 4-5 I saw at the show. Panthers not so much.

I really was wishing I could Skype someone on the forum while at the show to show them what I was looking at and get a live "professional opinion". In the end I played it safe, and didn't buy. We left at closing, and I really had regret for not getting one of the two top Chams. Kind of like a "reverse buyers remorse"

There's a short story about the first Cham: We were leaving the show, and I said I wanted to go talk to the seller one more time to ask a question. I had named the Cham "Booyee" because the name struck me when I was looking at him. My wife had been pushing me to buy him, but I resisted. I realized they were putting stuff up (we where there past closing time) and the seller was in the center of the show and we were just outside the entrance so I said, "Na, I'll ask later or email the seller." I went to help my son load up the stuff we bought (we got him a bearded dragon and all the stuff needed/ starter kit etc..) and realized my wife had disappeared. I went back inside to find her handing over her credit card to the seller for the little cham pictured at the top of my first post. In a rather awkward conversion, I told her (in front of the seller) that I wasn't ready for it and to not buy it. I apologized to the seller and profusely to my wife for stopping her. She was wanting to make me happy and surprise me when she got to the car. I feel like poo now for that, but I really want to be sure I get a healthy male and my terrarium still isn't completed, so I wasn't ready to bring one home. If he was healthy, and a male he would have been a good deal at $250.

 

[NHenn]

@broderp I am impressed, I can't believe you were able to hold off and not bring one of them home with you. I would have folded instantly hahaha.

Okay, let me see if I can't shed some light on everything. Booyee is indeed a panther chameleon as well as a male. I know we can't see his tail base but from my past experience I'm positive he is a male. Also, I think he would be a Nosy Be locale as well as most Nosy Be males around that age will have those brighter blue colors.

The second panther is a bit older and is also a male. His colors are not developed but would come in as he grows up. He could very easily be an Ambilobe as his colors are again typical for one that age. He will most likely take on more green and blue as he gets older and could develop yellows, oranges and reds.

The third is a male Furcifer verrucosus or Giant Spiny Chameleon. He looks to be a mature male but I don't think he is full grown. I would be willing to bet he is Wild Caught as finding a captive born one would be very difficult as not many, if any breeders really work with them.

Local shows are great as you get to see the chameleon in person but sometimes everything is so rushed and once the show is over you are sorta left on your own with your new chameleon. If you would happen to be open to shipping, I would be more than happy to show you some of our current chameleons we have available. I just posted a few classified ads for some of the Nosy Be males we currently have available. They are looking very similar to Booyee and are right around the three month mark. I would be here for every step of the process and of course answer any and all questions you might have. Feel free to shoot me a message, email [email protected] or even shoot me a text / call (610) 812-7479.

 

[broderp]

@broderp I am impressed, I can't believe you were able to hold off and not bring one of them home with you. I would have folded instantly hahaha.

Okay, let me see if I can't shed some light on everything. Booyee is indeed a panther chameleon as well as a male. I know we can't see his tail base but from my past experience I'm positive he is a male. Also, I think he would be a Nosy Be locale as well as most Nosy Be males around that age will have those brighter blue colors.

The second panther is a bit older and is also a male. His colors are not developed but would come in as he grows up. He could very easily be an Ambilobe as his colors are again typical for one that age. He will most likely take on more green and blue as he gets older and could develop yellows, oranges and reds.

The third is a male Furcifer verrucosus or Giant Spiny Chameleon. He looks to be a mature male but I don't think he is full grown. I would be willing to bet he is Wild Caught as finding a captive born one would be very difficult as not many, if any breeders really work with them.

Local shows are great as you get to see the chameleon in person but sometimes everything is so rushed and once the show is over you are sorta left on your own with your new chameleon. If you would happen to be open to shipping, I would be more than happy to show you some of our current chameleons we have available. I just posted a few classified ads for some of the Nosy Be males we currently have available. They are looking very similar to Booyee and are right around the three month mark. I would be here for every step of the process and of course answer any and all questions you might have. Feel free to shoot me a message, email [email protected] or even shoot me a text / call (610) 812-7479.

Hello and thank you for replying on my post. I appreciate your insight.
Assuming Booyee was healthy, he was a steel at $250. I have the sellers business card and was considering calling him. To see if he is still available. I believe he was local to the Ohio area where I'm from.

I didn't mention it above, but another reason why I didn't buy then was that if I was going to pay the $350 price for a Cham, then I may as well look at the sight sponsors and see what they have! Believe it or not, I have been eyeballing Canvas Chameleons in particular as you had some available and in the sex and color variant I was considering. I really love Freeze and Azul Jr colors! I'm not opposed to shipping, but it all adds into the overall cost. (Again making Boyee a steal at $250) I am very interested in what your offerings are and would love to see your offerings. How would I go about seeing what you have?



Ever since the first reptile show I went to and saw this guy, I was hooked.

My wife bought me a Veiled that I raised and kept for about 4 years, so I never got a Panther. Now that my Veiled has passed (rip), I'm looking for a blue panther to fill the empty spot I have left by my old cham. Your darn right it was hard to not buy one. It's been several days and I'm still mad at myself for stopping my wife from getting that little Cham.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@broderp Just my two cents worth, coming from a breeder who puts a lot of time and money into producing her babies--which is a round about way of saying I am a little biased......

You are much better off to get an animal from a reputable breeder--which @NHenn is--for a few reasons.

The baby you get directly from the breeder won't have been horribly stressed all weekend at a reptile show. While I ship in deli cups, I don't ever leave them exposed in the light and feeling vulnerable like the ones at the show are. I put my babies in a cup and then cover them up with a dark cloth so they can relax. A reptile show baby will also be exposed to a lot of disease from many people handling animal after animal (even just the deli cup), even when they use a hand disinfectant and even if you think no one opened up the deli cup. Stress can really do a number on their immune system.

It sounds as if the panthers you looked at were wholesaled from a breeder to a middle man. You have no idea how they were raised, how the parents, especially the mother, were cared for and nourished. Poor nutrition of the mother means she can't put enough into her eggs which the baby relies on for months after hatching. At least when dealing directly with the breeder you should be able to get an idea of the quality of the babies they will produce. You have no idea when you are talking to a middleman.

A good breeder is there for you before and after the sale. They will share their knowledge and give you the time to help you get it right.

Last but not least, I believe consumers should support good, reputable breeders so those breeders continue to produce good babies and continue to spread their knowledge around. If consumers don't support breeders and pay them a fair price, those breeders will leave the hobby and you'll be left with the Craig's List of breeders. It is expensive to raise babies correctly without cutting corners.

Stick to what you really want, which seems to be a blue panther. Don't get sidetracked by the other very interesting (and often wild caught) species.

 

[alphakenc]

The way they keep their baby chameleons in the cups is easily to put lots extremely stress on the chams,deli cup is only good for over night ship while the cham is SLEEPING ,the seller should set up a bigger enclosures in the reptile show,as I can only see those stressful pattern showing on these 2 little panther baby males.
Panther chams doesn't do very well in the deli cup like the snakes especially when they are awake, in a whole day reptile show for sure.

 

[NHenn]

@broderp That is great to hear, I'm glad you were already checking out some of our chameleons and would be open to shipping. I know it will add to the overall cost but we are actually located in Pennsylvania so the shipping might not be as bad. If you would like to see some of the babies we have from Azul Jr and Freeze I can send over some pictures of the little guys so you can check them out. I know of one male from Freeze that is really starting to put on some nice size and his blues are getting more and more intense everyday so I will definitely have to show you him. If you want, way don't you shoot me a text (610) 812-7479 and then I can take some pictures on my phone and send over.

 

[Link]

I go all the time to expos . Going Sunday. Some of them have a lot of good societies there to learn from

 

[carol5208]

The way they keep their baby chameleons in the cups is easily to put lots extremely stress on the chams,deli cup is only good for over night ship while the cham is SLEEPING ,the seller should set up a bigger enclosures in the reptile show,as I can only see those stressful pattern showing on these 2 little panther baby males.
Panther chams doesn't do very well in the deli cup like the snakes especially when they are awake, in a whole day reptile show for sure.

I agree!

 

[Link]

@broderp That is great to hear, I'm glad you were already checking out some of our chameleons and would be open to shipping. I know it will add to the overall cost but we are actually located in Pennsylvania so the shipping might not be as bad. If you would like to see some of the babies we have from Azul Jr and Freeze I can send over some pictures of the little guys so you can check them out. I know of one male from Freeze that is really starting to put on some nice size and his blues are getting more and more intense everyday so I will definitely have to show you him. If you want, way don't you shoot me a text (610) 812-7479 and then I can take some pictures on my phone and send over.

Hello I was totally unaware you were canvas. I bought 3 chameleons from someone that couldn't take care of them I believe. I was wondering if you could help me with their bloodlines. I have no paperwork but I do have the boxes. No trouble if you cannot

 

[NHenn]

Hello I was totally unaware you were canvas. I bought 3 chameleons from someone that couldn't take care of them I believe. I was wondering if you could help me with their bloodlines. I have no paperwork but I do have the boxes. No trouble if you cannot

I can try my best. Do you want to send me a message with all the information you know about them.

 

[JGspecial]

expos are kinda a crapshoot, either the chameleons are awesome or theyre really bad. i saw a beautiful panther today at the manchester expo. i really wanted him but the price was too good to be true because he was bleeding from his ass. i see a lot of healthy ones in food cups but there was this one table toward the end of the expo that had some really miserable looking little guys. they looked stressed to the max or sick. funny thing is i bought my fisher cham from that same guy last year and all of the chams he had looked great and my little guy is extremely healthy, his last doctor visit his poops came up clean. anyway, this expo was really disappointing too because the inventory just wasnt all that great and what was nice was far too expensive. if i had haggling money i feel like i would have came out with something though, 2 chams caught my eye but it just wasnt my time.