Reptile vet says 'only gutload with dry cricketfood'

[Miss Machine]

Whenever it's necessary to take our chameleon to the vet, most members from the Dutch chameleon society are recommending to go to one special 'reptile vet' in the Netherlands.

What this vet says is the following:

1. no need to use a wet gutload, that is not a sufficient way to get the calcium/phosporus rate straight and it is not adding enough vitamins
2. only supplement with MinerAll outdoor every feeding, if your animal has a good UV source
3. only use T-Rex calcium cricketfood as a gutload
4. provide your chameleon liquid calcium via drinking water

This vet also recommends cat food to a sick and non-eating chameleon, or to one who is recovering from illness.

I am just not satisfied with this advise. I think it is very important to offer all the prey items a good wet gutload and a good dry gutload, for which I use VitAll. I cannot believe T-Rex calcium cricketfood is the ONLY good gutload for prey items.

Please I would like to read some opinions on this

 

[EvilLost]

I don't have much to say about the wet vs dry gutload, but are you perhaps downplaying suggestion #4?

providing liquid calcium via water to my chameleon....how exactly would you do this or dose this...? Perhaps if it is a special care chameleon, but most chameleons are given drinking water via misting/etc and there is no way to accurately dose how much of that he would get (and what are the effects it'd have on my plants?)


Why the cat food suggestion? Not all cat foods are made from the same ingredients....did he mean a specific ingredient that was commonly found in cat food, or a certain brand? I use cat food to feed my roaches sometimes but not TO my chameleon (also, how would you feed it? aside from force feeding which would fall under "special needs" animal) I'm curious to hear about this....

 

[Miss Machine]

Calcium via drinking water i think the vet ment to add it through misting with a hand mister or something.

I use the liquid calcium from Exo Terra on tap water (1 drop per 30 ml. of water) when i give my chameleons water by hand with a pipette.

As far as the cat food, the vet said that cat food provides all the requirements in balance, calcium, vitamins. But this is only suggested by this vet when you have to force feed an animal or feed it after recovery from illness. But I think the regular cat food brands contain (to much) salt and that can cause kidney failure.

 

[laurie]

Well I can't even come close to being a vet, but there is just no way I would be willing to follow that advice. We have a expert on the forum when it comes to gut loading feeders. I will send sandrachameleon a pm and ask that she look at your thread.

 

[Miss Machine]

Thanks Laurie! I thought the same thing! I also would not rely on just something out of a small jar. That's why I really don't understand this advice.

I use VitAll and next to it all kinds of fruits and vegetables, also wild herbs like dandelion. I also dust lightly with vitaminpowder once a week in winter. Next to it I use Minerall Outdoor twice a week and once a week just with plain calciumpowder. Once or twice a month with Minerall Indoor in winter, in summer I never supply D3 because my animals are mostly outside catching natural sunlight.

 

[JoeRueg]

I use spirulina they eat that shit up. i allso use collard greens. best way to do it.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I am just not satisfied with this advise.

I agree - its unsatisfactory advise. How unfortunately that a whole community of chameleon keepers is being influenced by this persons opinion. Im not saying there's anything wrong with the T-Rex product, but such a limited narrow opinion is unfortunate.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I disagree with that advice. I actually think the dry can be excluded with good wet gutloading. I have not seen a dry product with well balanced nutrients and ingredients. Most of the primary ingredients of dry commercial products consist of soybean meal, wheat middlings, fish meal, rice bran, etc. None of those sound especially natural for a food source or high in calcium. Not a whole lot of wheat midlings in the forests of Madagascar and Africa...but there sure are a lot of plants. And why not offer greens? Is it harmful? Considering I excluded my dry component about 6 months ago entirely and all my critters are doing great I'm gonna say no. I would not have done that if it was a major risk to do so. So why would you not want to offer more variety when possible? Especially when you know about the favorable ratio of calcium in dark leafy greens? No, I disagree with that recommendation.

 

[camimom]

I disagree with that advice. I actually think the dry can be excluded with good wet gutloading. I have not seen a dry product with well balanced nutrients and ingredients. Most of the primary ingredients of dry commercial products consist of soybean meal, wheat middlings, fish meal, rice bran, etc. None of those sound especially natural for a food source or high in calcium. Not a whole lot of wheat midlings in the forests of Madagascar and Africa...but there sure are a lot of plants. And why not offer greens? Is it harmful? Considering I excluded my dry component about 6 months ago entirely and all my critters are doing great I'm gonna say no. I would not have done that if it was a major risk to do so. So why would you not want to offer more variety when possible? Especially when you know about the favorable ratio of calcium in dark leafy greens? No, I disagree with that recommendation.

I agree with you. my bugs and chams are thriving on a wet gutload only. I use the veggies and stuff you list in your blogs. and my bugs eat it up.

Granted, I have used that dry commerical stuff in a pinch, but not for gutloading. just for food for the bugs until i can get to a store to get veggies again.

I also plan to get dino fuel or bug burger soon, but will still use veggies.

JMO.

 

[tkilgour]

I once had a local vet tell me that panthers and veileds make terrible pets and that they can't lay fertile eggs in captivity. LOL

I wouldn't use that advice. Use plenty of fresh veggies, like Kale, collard greens, dandelions, alfalfa. I also like to use carrots, squash, and oranges. Also use nuts and seeds. Hemp seeds, sesame seeds, walnuts, almonds, etc. There are dry, organic, commercial, gutloads that work very well in conjunction with fresh veggies and do not have soybean meal, wheat middlings, fish meal, rice bran, etc.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

1. no need to use a wet gutload, that is not a sufficient way to get the calcium/phosporus rate straight and it is not adding enough vitamins

I can see the vets words (might) being taken out of context. A dry gutload stays in the crickets gut longer. A wet gutload is exspelled at a much higher rate with only the moisture content that the insect needs retained. Rest go's out the back end rather fast.

 

[Miss Machine]

I agree - its unsatisfactory advise. How unfortunately that a whole community of chameleon keepers is being influenced by this persons opinion. Im not saying there's anything wrong with the T-Rex product, but such a limited narrow opinion is unfortunate.

Exactly my point, many people of our chameleon community are being influenced by this because the vets says this. I also don't think there is anything wrong with this cricket food. What's wrong is saying that this is the only product to use as a gutload.

Thanks all for your comments! And keep 'em coming

 

[Miss Machine]

I can see the vets words (might) being taken out of context. A dry gutload stays in the crickets gut longer. A wet gutload is exspelled at a much higher rate with only the moisture content that the insect needs retained. Rest go's out the back end rather fast.

The vet really said that giving a wet gutload is useless, because it doesn't matter for this ratio. Maybe this also relates to being digested more easily and faster than a dry gutload, but then still in my opinion it's not a good advise to not use a wet gutload. Of course, it also matters in how quick you feed the prey items after gutloading.

 

[tkilgour]

The vet really said that giving a wet gutload is useless, because it doesn't matter for this ratio.

That is such a silly thing to say. I'd just go to a new vet if at all possible or direct him / her to the cham forum next time.

 

[Dr O]

But I think the regular cat food brands contain (to much) salt and that can cause kidney failure.

Salt's not great, but it is the particularly high protein levels in cat food (an obligate carnivore) that is the major danger by feeding it. At least salt can be flushed quickly by drinking a lot, but the protein can do some real down and dirty microscopic damage to the kidney tubules.


dr. o-

 

[Miss Machine]

Thanks so far for all the comments. As far as i'm concerned, i am taking my animals to a different vet when i need to.

I understand that nutrional value, when it comes to the levels of calcium and vitamins, differs from animal to animal.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Cat food also has substantial amounts of Vitamins A and D - which can build up in their systems.

One last thought -Fresh vegetables and fruits contribute to well hydrated prey. Well hydrated prey contribute towards a well hydrated chameleon.

 

[Sabayon]

1. no need to use a wet gutload, that is not a sufficient way to get the calcium/phosporus rate straight and it is not adding enough vitamins
3. only use T-Rex calcium cricketfood as a gutload


I'm new to chams ... but even looking at this from a common sense perspective, something doesnt look right.

No need to use wet gutload .. that may or may not be true, but shouldn't we offer our pets as many options as we can? All I hear from people on this forum when it comes to food is variety. The more the better. Sounds about right to me! I never understood the mentality of "No, dont use that. You dont NEED to" almost like it is a waste or something.

Same thing applies to the T-Rex calcium cricket food, why only that? I'm not familiar with the product myself, but I like the idea of cooking my own food rather than buying premade things, so I apply that to my chameleons food as well. I like to know what I'm feeding him and why.

This bothers me a little as well ... especially because a vet should be a very trustworthy source of information. Can't say I'm surprised though ... I've experienced/witnessed even worse than this from actual doctors.

 

[Dr O]

from actual doctors.

cough....

new vet on the board!


how about "human doctors"?