RIP Boogie... Advice on a necropsy for sudden death?

[CalamityCrow]

Vet is going to send him out either tonight or first thing tomorrow to an exotics pathologist to do an in-depth necropsy (physical and microscopic looks). Hopefully they find out what happened and I can get SOMETHING out of the report they'll generate.

With him not opening eyes when his lights went on the morning he died, I'm really wondering if it was indeed something congenital. He was JUST on the cusp of being a year old (he was hatched June/July '23) so if something just couldn't handle it... I could see it. I suppose it's also possible he got hurt somehow in a freak accident. I sort of examined him before calling the vet to ask about necropsies and his throat seemed to have something in it but I don't know if that was a post-death issue, or if somehow he'd swallowed his tongue, or got something stuck, or if that's just where the tongue bone can sit.

Either way, I hope to get an explanation. It's just real tough losing my second cham in 3 years, when I've worked SO HARD to give them good lives... Little Guy ended up with cancer. Only sign was a small lump on his leg and after a vet visit, he was dead in a day and a half... And now Boogie, gone in a matter of hours after seeming fine. I have had abysmal luck with these precious babies. Once I learn what happened and properly sanitize the enclosure, and have a little time... Perhaps third try will be the charm?

 

[Sonny13]

Vet is going to send him out either tonight or first thing tomorrow to an exotics pathologist to do an in-depth necropsy (physical and microscopic looks). Hopefully they find out what happened and I can get SOMETHING out of the report they'll generate.

With him not opening eyes when his lights went on the morning he died, I'm really wondering if it was indeed something congenital. He was JUST on the cusp of being a year old (he was hatched June/July '23) so if something just couldn't handle it... I could see it. I suppose it's also possible he got hurt somehow in a freak accident. I sort of examined him before calling the vet to ask about necropsies and his throat seemed to have something in it but I don't know if that was a post-death issue, or if somehow he'd swallowed his tongue, or got something stuck, or if that's just where the tongue bone can sit.

Either way, I hope to get an explanation. It's just real tough losing my second cham in 3 years, when I've worked SO HARD to give them good lives... Little Guy ended up with cancer. Only sign was a small lump on his leg and after a vet visit, he was dead in a day and a half... And now Boogie, gone in a matter of hours after seeming fine. I have had abysmal luck with these precious babies. Once I learn what happened and properly sanitize the enclosure, and have a little time... Perhaps third try will be the charm?

I feel you on this one, I’m suffering the same faith with Panthers. Lost both of them suddenly https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/sudden-deaths.187927/

On the other hand, I’m still having 4 other chams (species) which are all +3 year in my care and alive and kicking. Therefore, you’re doing such great job with your chams and it’s probably just bad luck, I’m 300% convinced of that. Still this doesn’t ease the pain and grief

 

[Picks]

Vet is going to send him out either tonight or first thing tomorrow to an exotics pathologist to do an in-depth necropsy (physical and microscopic looks). Hopefully they find out what happened and I can get SOMETHING out of the report they'll generate.

With him not opening eyes when his lights went on the morning he died, I'm really wondering if it was indeed something congenital. He was JUST on the cusp of being a year old (he was hatched June/July '23) so if something just couldn't handle it... I could see it. I suppose it's also possible he got hurt somehow in a freak accident. I sort of examined him before calling the vet to ask about necropsies and his throat seemed to have something in it but I don't know if that was a post-death issue, or if somehow he'd swallowed his tongue, or got something stuck, or if that's just where the tongue bone can sit.

Either way, I hope to get an explanation. It's just real tough losing my second cham in 3 years, when I've worked SO HARD to give them good lives... Little Guy ended up with cancer. Only sign was a small lump on his leg and after a vet visit, he was dead in a day and a half... And now Boogie, gone in a matter of hours after seeming fine. I have had abysmal luck with these precious babies. Once I learn what happened and properly sanitize the enclosure, and have a little time... Perhaps third try will be the charm?

Understand your frustration and heavy heart. There is so much we don’t know about ourselves and our animal friends. All we can do is strive for knowledge and keep moving forward. Sounds like you are moving forward in the right direction in your quest for knowledge and please absolutely give it another chance.

 

[CalamityCrow]

Understand your frustration and heavy heart. There is so much we don’t know about ourselves and our animal friends. All we can do is strive for knowledge and keep moving forward. Sounds like you are moving forward in the right direction in your quest for knowledge and please absolutely give it another chance.

Oh I will. I just want to find out what happened to see if there's anything I can do for a new baby to avoid the same fate. These rollercoasters of life are hard, but it's good to have such a wonderful support system here.

 

[Picks]

Oh I will. I just want to find out what happened to see if there's anything I can do for a new baby to avoid the same fate. These rollercoasters of life are hard, but it's good to have such a wonderful support system here.

Have you gotten necropsy results back on

Vet is going to send him out either tonight or first thing tomorrow to an exotics pathologist to do an in-depth necropsy (physical and microscopic looks). Hopefully they find out what happened and I can get SOMETHING out of the report they'll generate.

With him not opening eyes when his lights went on the morning he died, I'm really wondering if it was indeed something congenital. He was JUST on the cusp of being a year old (he was hatched June/July '23) so if something just couldn't handle it... I could see it. I suppose it's also possible he got hurt somehow in a freak accident. I sort of examined him before calling the vet to ask about necropsies and his throat seemed to have something in it but I don't know if that was a post-death issue, or if somehow he'd swallowed his tongue, or got something stuck, or if that's just where the tongue bone can sit.

Either way, I hope to get an explanation. It's just real tough losing my second cham in 3 years, when I've worked SO HARD to give them good lives... Little Guy ended up with cancer. Only sign was a small lump on his leg and after a vet visit, he was dead in a day and a half... And now Boogie, gone in a matter of hours after seeming fine. I have had abysmal luck with these precious babies. Once I learn what happened and properly sanitize the enclosure, and have a little time... Perhaps third try will be the charm?

Have you received necropsy results yet

 

[Picks]

Have you received necropsy results yet

 

[CalamityCrow]

Not yet. They told me it'd be a few weeks probably. When I do, I'll post them and add my story to the Sudden Deaths thread, for info for everyone else.

 

[Picks]

Not yet. They told me it'd be a few weeks probably. When I do, I'll post them and add my story to the Sudden Deaths thread, for info for everyone else.

Thanks

 

[CalamityCrow]

I finally got the necropsy results back. I've attached the report, and below is the email that the vet sent me. I asked about the lack of fat, and the vet said she didn't think he was UNDERWEIGHT necessarily, but he was definitely not fat, and consistent weighing could be another way to tell if something is off. I'd weigh him from time to time but the next bubba I get will definitely be weighed at least monthly, if not weekly. Anything to get a jump on things.

"So the major findings from the necropsy:
1) Severe renal gout
2) Chronic, active granuloma in the liver

The potential causes for the renal gout - dehydration, improper nutriition, ascending infection, underlying renal disease, or some combination of the above. They were not able to pinpoint if the gout caused the renal disease or was a result of the renal disease, they also were unable to completely exclude a congenital kidney abnormality. They did see bacteria in the tubules, and that combined with the granuloma in the liver means that infection could be a cause of what happened. One note they did make was that there was no adipose tissue (fat) detected in the samples they processed, which means he was in lean body condition.

So, reviewing his husbandry, I think the main take away I would have from this is to continue to work on making sure the humidity is staying up where it should be (I know it is very difficult here in the desert to find that balance between making sure they have enough fresh air-flow AND the humidity is appropriate, it's a battle all my chameleon patients face). I can't recall if you regularly weighed him at home, but I do encourage herp owners to routinely weigh them -- not sure if that would have helped us catch the infection, but since they noted he was in lean condition we may have caught a change in weight (your scale doesn't have to agree with my scale, but at home monitoring catches trends we miss as they are very adept at hiding illness)."

I'm not sure how he had gout, as his urates were always white (it was rare for even any orange), and he had no outward signs. At barely a year old, I wasn't expecting that. My suspicion is either he DID have a congenital kidney issue and gout was the result, or he was extra sensitive to the composition of dubia roaches. Next cham I get, I'll definitely try and get a good source of silkworms and maybe a few others for a wider variety than staple BSFL and dubia.

I'll post this in the Sudden Deaths thread as well, for more data points.

Miss ya, Boogie! I'll never forget you. <3

 

[elizaann2]

Thank you for sharing.

One thought I have: If you live in a very dry area do you have a hybrid enclosure? If so, can you cover more of the screen part of your hybrid enclosure to help hold in more humidity? Are your humidity levels low enough that it maybe makes sense to fog during the day?

 

[CalamityCrow]

Thank you for sharing.

One thought I have: If you live in a very dry area do you have a hybrid enclosure? If so, can you cover more of the screen part of your hybrid enclosure to help hold in more humidity? Are your humidity levels low enough that it maybe makes sense to fog during the day?

I have a Dragon Strand hybrid enclosure, which is only screened on the top and the very bottom for a chimney effect. The rest of the enclosure is plastic with a clear plexi door. I actually ran the mister a few times throughout the day (and night) and the enclosure *still* dried out shortly after doing so. I think one thing I could improve on is more vegetation. Ironically, my pothos and money tree REALLY started growing shortly before he died. I've let them keep growing in the enclosure since, and knowing that it was an internal issue that killed him, sanitization shouldn't be too much of a problem. When I decide to get another cham (not quite sure when yet), he'll be put into a very lush enclosure.

Before I do that I'll have to run some tests for fogging during the day. I don't want humidity to spike TOO much. The other trick is out here I have a swamp cooler so the summer in the house has actually been fairly humid... I've had some random metal things in my house develop rust even -_- . So I think the biggest challenge living here is going to be the late fall/winter months. I will absolutely invest in a humidifier too.

 

[Picks]

I finally got the necropsy results back. I've attached the report, and below is the email that the vet sent me. I asked about the lack of fat, and the vet said she didn't think he was UNDERWEIGHT necessarily, but he was definitely not fat, and consistent weighing could be another way to tell if something is off. I'd weigh him from time to time but the next bubba I get will definitely be weighed at least monthly, if not weekly. Anything to get a jump on things.

"So the major findings from the necropsy:
1) Severe renal gout
2) Chronic, active granuloma in the liver

The potential causes for the renal gout - dehydration, improper nutriition, ascending infection, underlying renal disease, or some combination of the above. They were not able to pinpoint if the gout caused the renal disease or was a result of the renal disease, they also were unable to completely exclude a congenital kidney abnormality. They did see bacteria in the tubules, and that combined with the granuloma in the liver means that infection could be a cause of what happened. One note they did make was that there was no adipose tissue (fat) detected in the samples they processed, which means he was in lean body condition.

So, reviewing his husbandry, I think the main take away I would have from this is to continue to work on making sure the humidity is staying up where it should be (I know it is very difficult here in the desert to find that balance between making sure they have enough fresh air-flow AND the humidity is appropriate, it's a battle all my chameleon patients face). I can't recall if you regularly weighed him at home, but I do encourage herp owners to routinely weigh them -- not sure if that would have helped us catch the infection, but since they noted he was in lean condition we may have caught a change in weight (your scale doesn't have to agree with my scale, but at home monitoring catches trends we miss as they are very adept at hiding illness)."

I'm not sure how he had gout, as his urates were always white (it was rare for even any orange), and he had no outward signs. At barely a year old, I wasn't expecting that. My suspicion is either he DID have a congenital kidney issue and gout was the result, or he was extra sensitive to the composition of dubia roaches. Next cham I get, I'll definitely try and get a good source of silkworms and maybe a few others for a wider variety than staple BSFL and dubia.

I'll post this in the Sudden Deaths thread as well, for more data points.

Miss ya, Boogie! I'll never forget you. <3

Thank you for sharing Boogie’s necropsy results. Knowledge is powerful thing. Boogie will never be forgotten from what he has taught all of us.

 

[MissSkittles]

Thanks for sharing. I hope this has given you some peace and healing. Sometimes no matter what we do, or how excellent our care is, we can lose our beautiful scaled friends too soon.

 

[CalamityCrow]

Thanks for sharing. I hope this has given you some peace and healing. Sometimes no matter what we do, or how excellent our care is, we can lose our beautiful scaled friends too soon.

Yeah, I'm glad I made the choice to find out what happened - and I'm glad that they could come to SOME conclusion. It doesn't really appear I could have seen it coming other than maybe a drop in weight, which is easily remedied with my next cham. I think I've just had bad luck with adopting them and them dying early. I'll get another in time... Not sure when, but I think I'll wait until the time feels right. Thanks everyone for the support - I LOVE this forum and have learned so much... And I continue to do so.

 

[elizaann2]

I have a Dragon Strand hybrid enclosure, which is only screened on the top and the very bottom for a chimney effect. The rest of the enclosure is plastic with a clear plexi door. I actually ran the mister a few times throughout the day (and night) and the enclosure *still* dried out shortly after doing so. I think one thing I could improve on is more vegetation. Ironically, my pothos and money tree REALLY started growing shortly before he died. I've let them keep growing in the enclosure since, and knowing that it was an internal issue that killed him, sanitization shouldn't be too much of a problem. When I decide to get another cham (not quite sure when yet), he'll be put into a very lush enclosure.

Before I do that I'll have to run some tests for fogging during the day. I don't want humidity to spike TOO much. The other trick is out here I have a swamp cooler so the summer in the house has actually been fairly humid... I've had some random metal things in my house develop rust even -_- . So I think the biggest challenge living here is going to be the late fall/winter months. I will absolutely invest in a humidifier too.

I think that is a very good idea. You could look into bioactive. That may hold the humidity better without runnin a fogger during the day.

 

[CalamityCrow]

I think that is a very good idea. You could look into bioactive. That may hold the humidity better without runnin a fogger during the day.

That's an interesting idea. I've never tried bioactive before. I think I'd hold off on that until I move into my forever home. I'll probably be moving in about a year, and hauling that big 'ol cage 2000 miles while being bioactive is... not ideal lol.

 

[elizaann2]

That's an interesting idea. I've never tried bioactive before. I think I'd hold off on that until I move into my forever home. I'll probably be moving in about a year, and hauling that big 'ol cage 2000 miles while being bioactive is... not ideal lol.

Oh ya no that does not sound fun at all! Something for down the road though