Serious Humidity Issues - help please!

[RPCV]

No that is not what I'm saying at all.

OK - breaking my promise...really gonna be my last post on this thread (maybe).

I think the point of confusion is that relative humidity is RELATIVE to temperature and is expressed as a % saturation - (the ammount of moisture in the air relative to the capacity of the air). Warm air can hold much more moisture than cold air. Therefore - even if relative humidity is high outdoors on a cold day it will decrease dramatically when it is brought indoors because the warmer indoor air has the capacity to hold more moisture. The ammount of moisture in the air stays the same but since the capacity is increased the % RH drops. This is why the RH indoors is normally much lower than outdoors during the winter in cold climates.

Based on the example I used previously - RH indoors would be a minimum of about 6% - but it is almost never that low. 20 - 25% indoors during the winter in the NJ climate is about as low as it gets with rare extremes around 10-15%. This is because cooking, breathing, plants, showers all add to the humidity. There is very little that removes moisture vapor from air during the winter months but other factors that add it. Your home humdity sounds about right based on the activities you described. Getting a reading of 3% (in an enclosure where misting is going on) is extemely unlikely and therefore (to the original point of this thread) the hygrometer that kicks out that reading is mostly likely FUBAR.

An example I like (because beer is good) - Warpdrive and RPCV are sitting at a bar talking Cham shit. RPCV orders a 16 oz beer 100% full(let's pretend the 16 oz glass is cold air). RPCV notices that Warpdrive's 48 oz (New Yorkers drink big beer) glass is empty and wants to share (big glass is representing warmer temperatures - because it holds more liquid). He pours half of his 16 Oz beer into Warpdrives glass. Now - RPCV's glass is 50% full but Warpdrive's glass is only 16% full....even though they have the same ammount of beer. Cold outside = small glass Warm inside = big glass.

Use this in reverse. Warpdrives' 48 oz glass is full and he (being a great guy) wants to share. He pours half his glass into RPCV's 16 oz cup and now the chams are slurping spilled beer from the bar. This is condensation. If there is too much moisture in the warm air (inside) and it is put into a smaller glass (cold air around surfaces such as exterior walls, windows, attics, etc.) then condensation forms. Why we need to be careful humidifying whole rooms or houses.

This made me thirsty Fat Tire time - it's 5:00 somewhere.

 

[warpdrive]

RPVC,

for the first time, I fully agree with everything you've said in the above examples.
in fact, I can't disagre with anything at all...so no need to copy/past anything and go crazy.

with that said, I want to make a few things clear...

no one is saying to bump the humidity inside his/her home beyond reason.
a 10% - 20% at best increase in humidity IF NEEDED is all a room humidifier is going to do anyway.
so while I agree that he/she will need to get a digital hygrometer, once they do, they will find out that their humidity will likely be about 10% to 20% higher then that bad one that they are using at best.

again, even you state that the humidity levels are based on temps.
thus, when the weather is 30 degrees outside and has a RH of 50%, then once you read that same humidity in a room that is 74 degrees (due to home heating) and then sometimes slightly higher in a cage with heat lamps, the relative humidity levels will drop.
this is what is happening here with this person regardless that they have a bad hygrometer and one small plant inside a baby cage.

now unless I missed it (and that's quite possable), the reading of this person's humidity is not when wet. I just don't remember seeing that the humidity is 10% just after a 1 min misting. I also don't remember this person saying that they see only 5% humidity after a misting this morning.
so while you might assume that the RH is based on a wet cage, I'm assuming that it is with a dry one....again, I think we can both agree that a new digital hygrometer is needed.

so I think the big question is this....
if a person has a RH outside of 45% (normal for this time of year in this person's case) at outside temps say of 30F....just what would the RH be in side the home when it is 74F?
it's going to be less right?
can we say somewhere about 20% RH or less? in my book, I say yes.
after all, that's a huge increase in temps compared to outside, and thus why we have such low RH not only in our homes, and thus in our cages.
after all, you even stated "Relating to the problem - At 20 degrees outdoors and 55% outdoor RH (about what its been in NJ this past week) that is 8.3 grains per pound of moisture in the air (gr/lb). Heat 8.3 gr/lb to 80 degrees at RH drops to about 6%"...so I guess my readings and this person's readings are not far off base. (well, in his/her case, it might be off by another 10% - 15%)

now what happens if the humidity is only 30% outside like tonight, with temps in the high teens?
better yet, what if it's around 0 degrees outside, and the humidity is only 25% like it was for me a few weeks ago?
do you think that the RH in my room is going to be the same as my first example?

my point is that you clearly know your stuff when it comes to RH...but you are not always looking at what can change from day to day or week to week.
in other words, yes, my humidity levels in my home can change drasticly from bad to worse depending on the weather outside my home vs. my temps inside my house.
so when people say that cool mist humidifiers are bad and don't work, they are wrong.
in your case, your saying that they are harmfull...and a 10% to 20% bump in RH is normaly not harmfull when needed.

again, at this time, I think we fully agree with eachother.
in this person's home their RH is going to be alot less then outside due to the temp differences.
is it going to be 5% or 10%...normaly, no.
but is it going to be the same as outside? agin, I think we both agree that the anser is no.

the only thing I think we disagree with at this point is if it is safe to use a cool mist humidifier in a home.
I know that while we might dissagree here on the amount of damage if used wisely and within reason, I polightly tip my hat to you for pointing out a possable danger.

above all, thank you for being so wonderful with all the time involved speaking to me. heck, go ahead and have a whole 48oz glass of beer on me.
you deserve it.

Harry

edit: I also want to state that I was not attacking someone like you in one of my original replys...in fact, I don't even think that I was originaly disagreeing with you at all in that reply. and after reading your last post, I'm just not sure we disagree after all. (at least that the OP's RH will infact be quite poor in his cage compared to the already piss poor humidity levels of outside.
so taking me up on the bet realy didn't apply to you....anyway, again have a 48oz beer on me.

I think the only thing we dissagree about RH within a household is you seem to think it never goes anywhere once it is produced...
or it seems in my mind that that is what you are trying to get through to me.
if I'm wrong, please forgive me.

humidity never stays the same in a household. it constantly goes up and down.
if we breath, yes we create humidity...but that added humidity, along with that pot of water you just boiled downstairs, and that shower you took 10 mins ago, may have added 10% RH on AVG per room (my kitchen and bathroom's RH may have hit into the 90% or higher, but by that time my uncle Luis walked through the front door while I opened the window 2 mins before, and BANG =air exchange.
open even a window for 5 mins and not only the temps will drasticly change but so will the humidity. pushing and pulling the RH in many of the rooms due to cracks in the floor or under door/around windows/poorly coved AC units and so on. in fact, we could lose far more then the buildup of that said "added humidity we created" .

if that is what you ment by just how safe room humidifiers are going to somehow totaly tilt the scale into some retardedly high chance to destroy your home always come with some risks.
when using humidifiers we must pay far closer attention to our humidity levels.
turning off our humidifiers when not needed, or having one that will stop at a desired room humidity level is no joke. but no need to run the humidifier if you room is above 40% (never mind that they realy don't need to run them when our rooms are only 35% in his case becase even without a new potted plant his cage will be around 40% to 45% due to what he has already when fully dry...and that's fine for what pet we are talking about), so I don't see a problem.
but then again, I'm sure you'll see that once this person gets a cool mist humidifier and a new digital hygrometer, they will only need about a 10% to 20% boost in RH (and on many days fr less, such as only a 2% to 5% boost in rom RH levels and that is just not that high of an output unless this person lives in a sealed tomb or vault.
yet if this person even has an atic, then it's also good to know that they can open an atic window every now and then and let out that humidity if their bathroom sealing sucks (or bedroom, living room, and so on) and alow it to go away.

 

[RPCV]

We agree - just took too many words to come to the simple point: get a good hygrometer and adjust the moisture as needed.

To clarify - I did not say humidity stays in one place. It is the opposite - moisture vapor moves from warm to cold this is why more moisture is needed to maintain humidity in a small area and why risk increases of unintentional damage done by over humidifying. The construction detail of the space will determine whether or not condensation will form. This could include how well windows/walls are insulated, the types of building materials used, presence or absence of vapor barriers in wall systems, etc. etc. The colder is oudoors the lower RH indoors therefore the need to introduce more moisture to bring RH levels up (even 10 to 20%). The quantity of moisture needed to raise RELATIVE humidity in not linear. It takes a whole lot more water to raise RH from 10 to 15% than it does to raise it from 50 to 55%. In these situations (very cold outdoors) exterior surfaces (wall cavities, windows, attic sheathing) will be very cold and the ammount of moisture needed to raise indoor RH will greatly increase. When this occurs surfaces are much higher risk of falling below the dew point. Again - whether or not this occurs depends on too many variables to make broad statements about risk because everyone's situation will be different and we circle back to the point that we agree on and could be made in one sentence: get a good hygrometer and adjust the moisture as needed.