Severe Metabolic Bone Disease Urgent!!

[Pilotman800]

So I moved him a bit closer to the heat and he perked up and actually opened his eyes which he hasn't done since yesterday. He is looking at me which is good. That is a HUGE improvement over yesterday and today. I will order a order a Reptisun 5.0 tomorrow for them. I bought what I could grab quick. Tomorrow I will buy a red incandescent bulb instead of the black incandescent bulb I currently have. I suppose my tortoise won't mind the black bulb as much.
He is unable to walk at this point. Tomorrow if he is with me we will be at the vet when they open.

I too have a love hate relationship with Petco. Each Petco sells animals depending on sales and location. Some stores are "right sized" and carry very few if any. But is up the GM's to make the decisions and that is where I get upset. This is my 3rd GM in 4 months. As of yet I am not impressed.

I asked a member to post a picture for me. The Pot the Veiled is in is obviously temporary just to get him warmer. and so the crickets can't dine on him. The basking spot temp is about 85 degrees. He actually looks better or happier maybe? His color is back to bright green and I can see him breathing now and before he was black and I could NOT see him breathing. I had to tickle his foot to make sure he was still with me.

At Petco we give the calcium powder with D3 every day it is Zoo Med brand. This I don't have a lot of options with at work. But our UVB lights suck and are almost a year old (I dated them last time I put them in).

Its good you're making adjustments. Instead of a red bulb, we recommend getting a normal (usually 45 watt) house bulb.

Its good he is slightly improving. You may have a long, hard road ahead of you. However, there is hope that he will live on to be a strong fighter.

D3 every day? That isn't good. Maybe there is something you can do about that?

Almost a year old? Thats not good either. They stop giving out an acceptable level of UVB rays after about 7-8 months or so.

Again, props and respect to you for taking in this sick chameleon. I hope the best for you two.

 

[zorygirl]

Okay I will move the light up a bit to lower the temps a few degrees. This morning he was hanging by one foot upside down and I thought he was dead his eyes were closed and he was cold as an ice cube. he is still alive as of now which is more then I thought would happen. I will do anything and take any advise you guys can offer. My current cage is not very big (not nearly enough for a chameleon to live in) so switching lights and ceramic heaters around will be a pain in the butt. So I guess I need to get cracken on the new habitat Friday morning! In the mean time I will do the switch as there is not enough room on top for the dripper the UVB, a ceramic heater and a regular light bulb. Not too mention the mister I ordered for him.

 

[zorygirl]

since he is alert and looking around should I give him more calcium spray or wait until tomorrow when we go to the vet?

It is weird I have osteoporosis and I take calcium and Vit d3 daily because we don't absorb the calcium without the D3. But they are the opposite. Very strange little creatures they are. I will change out the calcium powder tomorrow night when I go to work so no one else is getting D3 daily.

 

[sdheli420]

ok posting yer other pics...

 

[VeiledChams]

since he is alert and looking around should I give him more calcium spray or wait until tomorrow when we go to the vet?

It is weird I have osteoporosis and I take calcium and Vit d3 daily because we don't absorb the calcium without the D3. But they are the opposite. Very strange little creatures they are. I will change out the calcium powder tomorrow night when I go to work so no one else is getting D3 daily.

They use the vitamin D3 in order process the calcium. Its the same thing. But they still are strange little creatures that rob our hearts

 

[zorygirl]

The one on the left is sick boy and the other one is pee wee the baby. Names will change to something normal later

Thanks for posting these for me!

 

[sdheli420]

They use the vitamin D3 in order process the calcium. Its the same thing. But they still are strange little creatures that rob our hearts

definatley strange, and totally have the key to my heart...

now if only female humans could be more like chameleons...just not get as mad soo fast like chameleons, and female humans do...


i could totally keep a gf in a tree in the corner of my room, ...mist her, feed her..ect ect..then leave when she complains..it'd be perfect..LMAO

 

[zorygirl]

My husband would agree with you! LOL

 

[sdheli420]

My husband would agree with you! LOL

lol good..ok well lil guy seems to bee in good shape its the older one that has the issues (lil guy is caught in time to supplement and give lighting) the older one is the only one in true dire need of a calcium fix, from a vet..ive gotta pass out now..(i just got a female with "issues" close to what yer dealing withso i need to be up before their lights go off to monitor her situation..will be on tomaley to post anymore pics er whatever you need..hope all works out, and best of luck!!!!!

 

[kinyonga]

calcium spray?? Why do you use calcium spray?

Regarding the black light....if its the type that produces UVB and your chameleon sleeps under it, the chameleon could be getting too much UVB and thus producing too much D3. If you are giving it D3 in addition to that and using a 10 UVB light during the day you are increasing the D3 even more IMHO...and too much D3 can produce symptoms of MBD.

Here's some information I hope will help you ....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It is weird I have osteoporosis and I take calcium and Vit d3 daily because we don't absorb the calcium without the D3. But they are the opposite. Very strange little creatures they are. I will change out the calcium powder tomorrow night when I go to work so no one else is getting D3 daily.

They aren't exactly the opposite. They use D3 just like mammals do to absorb calcium. The difference is we get it from our diet and they get it from UVB rays causing the synthesis of vitamin D in their skin! So as long as your cham has UVB rays (absolutely critical) then they usually have all the vitamin D3 that they need. The problem is the lack of calcium to absorb rather than the means to absorb it. Of course without UVB it's both.

Agree with kinyonga that calcium spray might not have been the best option. Please use a liquid calcium gluconate or calcium powder instead.

 

[lindawaz]

Hello, and welcome sorry, it is for this situation.

At the present time you have very high experienced and respected keepers helping you. They have probably forgot less than I will ever know.

Just know what you have done so far is wonderful (getting them out of there)
We are all rooting for the two of you.
Keep posting any questions, concerns, and victories

 

[zorygirl]

Hi All,

Well he made through the night. The black light we have is not a florescent light but a regular 75 watt bulb that is colored black. My socks do not glow under it it is heat only. It is the Zilla black light.

I thought the Zilla calcium spray was calcium glucanate? There web site says it can be given by the dropper full for extreme calcium deficiencies. I used it because he can't catch his own crickets right now. I don't have access to many types of feeding insects where I live so at the moment I am using dusted crickets. He did eat a few crickets I gave him last night (pulled his mouth open gently and stuffed on in, then every time he hissed at me I stuffed another on in, he had 3 small crickets last night.) I do have worms in my compost pile and I could chop up a few of those if any of you think it would help. The sun is out today so I may take him outside for 1/2 an hour to soak a up some rays. Since it is a bit nippy out (40 degrees) I was thinking about warming up a hand warmer and setting it next to him on my hand so he doesn't freeze. Is that a good idea?

I am waiting for the vet to call me back they don't have any openings until monday. They said he may to a parking lot visit.

 

[zorygirl]

So the vet called and said there is pretty much nothing he can do at this point. He said to keep giving the calcium spray by the drop and get him outside for 20 minutes a day when it is sunny out, which in the PNW isn't very often. he said the more heat the better. He is the only vet who works on reptiles in this area and he is not great at it just okay. It is a 2 hour drive to Seattle where there are more exotic vets. so at this point you all are the only thing around to help me save him. My next day off is a week from Fri which is a long time to wait to go to the vet.

So it is bundle up time and head out in the sun for now. Thanks all, I wish there was better news....

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

That is disappointing that he said that was all you could do. There are lots of things you can do at home to get him back on track. This is a situation where good gutloading is absolutely critical! Basics of Gutloading. He needs as much calcium as possible to replace the deficit so he can begin to repair the damage. Just regular maintenance levels of calcium are not enough. Make sure every feeder is dusted with a calcium powder (no phosphorus or D3) and use the calcium rich food for gutloading. Then you'll need to get the liquid calcium as kinyonga suggested here:

Originally Posted by kinyonga
You could buy some liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate at a pharmacy and give the chameleon some in a needleless syringe or eye dropper...but its syrupy so you need to give it a little at a time to prevent it from being aspirated (ending up in the lungs) and to allow it to swallow it more easily.

The liquid calcium really jumpstarts the calcium levels and is the first step on the right track. You should give this at 0.1ml several times a week for at least 2 months and should be in addition to the things mentioned above. Just one of these options is not enough, he'll need all of them together. To be honest you would have needed to do all of this even if you had gotten calcium injections. The injections would have helped though. They do recover slowly with their slow reptilian metabolism so be prepared for that. We are happy to offer as much guidance as possible! Sunlight is good but not if it's too cold outside - a UVB light will suffice. And heat is only good up to a point so make sure you still stay within the recommended ranges.

 

[Elizadolots]

When you get a chance, you might want to take a look at this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/please-help-poss-impaction-veiled-female-67257/

I think you'll find it inspiring.

 

[camimom]

When you get a chance, you might want to take a look at this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/please-help-poss-impaction-veiled-female-67257/

I think you'll find it inspiring.

You beat me too it! I was going to post Riven and pascals thread here for her too.
To the OP, good luck! always post questions you have here, no matter how ;'stupid' or silly they seem.
Also, I know that Riven's thread is super uber long, like 30 some pages of comments, but read through it carefully, it can help you alot with your guy, and Riven has been able to keep her little girl alive, and her chameleon's mbd was much worse than 'sick boy's'. (gotta work on that name lol)

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

by any chance does your Petco carry calci (phoenix) worms?. they are small, and the calcium would help.

Keep asking the questions and people here will keep helping with sound advice.

I brought a rescue back from MBD, he is healthy now, so it can be done. I take mine outside when its 60' as long as there is sun. 30 to 60 min a day will help so much. You are so cute with warming mitts!, actually a great idea I think.
anne

 

[Riven]

You need to find another vet who will prescribe you injectable calcium. Because the intestines need calcium to work, it will be better absorbed injected.

The light she is talking about is the Zilla night bulb. The UVB bulb needs to be updated, otherwise it's not helping at all.

I recommend bug soup...crickets and fatty worms mixed up in the blender so you can syringe feed them. I mixed in some liquid calcium glucanate and some Flukers reptile supplement.

Does her tongue work? If you put her in a tupperware can she eat then?

Right or wrong, this worked for us, my vet said since Pascal was very ill, that the additional D3 would not hurt her at this point. I used an OTC calcium until I got the glucanate ordered.

Keep us updated, ask questions until you get the answer you need too. It can be done! Good luck, we're here to help!

 

[zorygirl]

My UVB light is brand new the store's lights are old which is partly how this happened.

Stupid cat broke the heat bulb while I was at work so he was VERY weak when I got home. He is under the heat now (red sleeping bulb as that is all I have available at 11pm) and is a little more alert. I gave him .2 of repti aid and he swallowed it. He only took a drop or two of water although he looks dehydrated. I will try to get more down him before bed. He can grasp with his hind feet a little better but he still can't move his legs.

I have some kale and chard and carrot for the crickets. We do not have calci worms at my store anymore I don't know why. I can check Petsmart tomorrow but I don't think they carry much. Worth a shot though.

So I have a dilema there is another cham on its way to our store (the order was processed before I could stop it) this is the LAST one we will have. Should I gather the money and buy it when it arrives and get it the heck out of there or wait and see if anyone comes to buy it. We do not sell them very quickly and since our bulbs at work at 8 months old and we do NOT gut load our crickets and mealworms are a staple there I am worried it will happen yet again. I don't "need" another cham and I could buy it and try to find it a home ASAP. But seriously who doesn't love these guys? They are super cute and real characters.

How much do I force feed? I am reading Rivins posts and will finish them tomorrow (it is almost midnight and I didn't sleep at all last night). If I make insect soup how much to give? He does NOT like being forced to eat.