Should i start a colony?

[ChameLeon_]

I'm planning my chameleon's life at the moment and i got to planning food. It will most likely be juvenile Veiled chameleon and I'm thinking, is it worth it starting a colony of dubia roaches for him? I could start before i get him so they have a chance to start breeding and i can buy more of them and multiple sizes to kick start the colony faster.

My question is how much of them i need to start with? Is it worth it keeping just for one chameleon? How much do they eat on average, is it worth it financially to start a colony considering I'll have to buy heating pad and plastic container, plus the starting colony?

I could get everything set up for about 40 with heating and about 20-25€ without heating. I can go without heating to slow down the breeding so i don't have too much of them too fast, which i know i eventually will have. In case of excess i would try to donate them, sell them, or last case scenario terminate them.

 

[MissSkittles]

I would always say to start a colony. You don’t need to have a massive one for just one animal. I’m certainly not even close to being an expert, but I’d think you could get a decent start with just maybe 3-4 males and 10-12 females. It will take time for them to get busy and start making babies. Keeping them around 90F/32c is ideal to get them breeding. I’m in a hot climate so only need to use a heat mat on the side of the bin in winter. Not sure I can give you quantities of how much they eat, but it isn’t at all expensive. I have a colony of somewhere around 30+ adult discoids (similar to dubia) and every few days I give them about a generous handful of whatever fresh produce I have and some Repashy Bug Burger. I’ve had my colony for a couple of years, so I’ve kind of figured out the right amount to feed them. Currently they are in a tall plastic bin with no substrate…just some stuff to climb on and hide under (egg carton works well). I did have them with about an inch or two of organic soil /cocoa coir mix and dwarf white isopods and springtails and they seemed to like that best based on how much better they made babies.
The initial set up costs are minimal compared to having to buy roaches. The convenience of never running out of feeders is priceless to me. In the past when my colony grew too large, I either gave away or sold the extra.

 

[ChameLeon_]

I would always say to start a colony. You don’t need to have a massive one for just one animal. I’m certainly not even close to being an expert, but I’d think you could get a decent start with just maybe 3-4 males and 10-12 females. It will take time for them to get busy and start making babies. Keeping them around 90F/32c is ideal to get them breeding. I’m in a hot climate so only need to use a heat mat on the side of the bin in winter. Not sure I can give you quantities of how much they eat, but it isn’t at all expensive. I have a colony of somewhere around 30+ adult discoids (similar to dubia) and every few days I give them about a generous handful of whatever fresh produce I have and some Repashy Bug Burger. I’ve had my colony for a couple of years, so I’ve kind of figured out the right amount to feed them. Currently they are in a tall plastic bin with no substrate…just some stuff to climb on and hide under (egg carton works well). I did have them with about an inch or two of organic soil /cocoa coir mix and dwarf white isopods and springtails and they seemed to like that best based on how much better they made babies.
The initial set up costs are minimal compared to having to buy roaches. The convenience of never running out of feeders is priceless to me. In the past when my colony grew too large, I either gave away or sold the extra.

Thanks for lengthy answer as always! I was planning some medium sized bin to fit into my cage cabinet and maybe the heating mat, then buy about 50 roaches different ages to kickstart it (maybe even more to be able to feed sooner from them) and then just maintain a stable colony for one juvenile. But yeah i guess ur right, i can always do something with the extra there! Gonna probably use just plain box and egg cartons and that's it for their home for me. Thanks! I'll definitely get the colony then. One more question, is dubia right choice? Is it better to feed more small ones or less big ones? And how's their noise and stuff?

 

[MissSkittles]

No noise except for the rustling of their wings sometimes. Clean the frass regularly and no odor. Dubia are illegal for me, so I have discoid which are super similar. I’ve heard dubia move a little slower. Neither flies and can’t climb smooth surfaces. The only other roach I’ve tried is Surinam and I hated them as they are very fast and good climbers. I don’t know if there’s any benefit over feeding smaller vs larger sizes. I usually feed off the larger of my nymphs first as it makes sense to me that way. @jamest0o0 is the bug expert and can certainly offer more info than I can.

 

[ChameLeon_]

No noise except for the rustling of their wings sometimes. Clean the frass regularly and no odor. Dubia are illegal for me, so I have discoid which are super similar. I’ve heard dubia move a little slower. Neither flies and can’t climb smooth surfaces. The only other roach I’ve tried is Surinam and I hated them as they are very fast and good climbers. I don’t know if there’s any benefit over feeding smaller vs larger sizes. I usually feed off the larger of my nymphs first as it makes sense to me that way. @jamest0o0 is the bug expert and can certainly offer more info than I can.

Sure thing, thanks for info! I will go for dubia since it's easily available here. I will have the bin in cabinet as well so it will muffle the noise even more, so no problems there, and I'll clean them so they don't smell, got it. Can it cause problems while feeding since they are slower?

 

[MissSkittles]

Sure thing, thanks for info! I will go for dubia since it's easily available here. I will have the bin in cabinet as well so it will muffle the noise even more, so no problems there, and I'll clean them so they don't smell, got it. Can it cause problems while feeding since they are slower?

No, I don’t think their speed will effect anything. I’d say the majority feed dubia with little to no problems. You will still need to give other feeders too…a good variety. A diet of exclusively roaches can contribute to some health problems such as gout. I use about 3 different staple feeders which I mix up regularly, plus treats. Roaches and crickets are my primary staples and silkworms and bsfl are dependent on what is available at the time. I breed superworms too, so those are my main treat, but I’ll also give on occasion hornworm or wax worm.

 

[ChameLeon_]

No, I don’t think their speed will effect anything. I’d say the majority feed dubia with little to no problems. You will still need to give other feeders too…a good variety. A diet of exclusively roaches can contribute to some health problems such as gout. I use about 3 different staple feeders which I mix up regularly, plus treats. Roaches and crickets are my primary staples and silkworms and bsfl are dependent on what is available at the time. I breed superworms too, so those are my main treat, but I’ll also give on occasion hornworm or wax worm.

Yes of course, I'm planning to breed roaches for main feeder and then buy occasionally crickets etc.. from time to time here and there to provide some variety.

 

[dinomom]

I'm planning my chameleon's life at the moment and i got to planning food. It will most likely be juvenile Veiled chameleon and I'm thinking, is it worth it starting a colony of dubia roaches for him? I could start before i get him so they have a chance to start breeding and i can buy more of them and multiple sizes to kick start the colony faster.

My question is how much of them i need to start with? Is it worth it keeping just for one chameleon? How much do they eat on average, is it worth it financially to start a colony considering I'll have to buy heating pad and plastic container, plus the starting colony?

I could get everything set up for about 40 with heating and about 20-25€ without heating. I can go without heating to slow down the breeding so i don't have too much of them too fast, which i know i eventually will have. In case of excess i would try to donate them, sell them, or last case scenario terminate them.

Totally worth it financially since roaches cost about 50 cents each. The pet stores never have enough; I trade my extras for hornworms, superworms or whatever else I want with a local store. For your initial investment you will have hundreds of dollars of (fresh, properly gutloaded) food!

When I find I am getting too many I feed more of the smaller ones versus a large one. Of course with a baby you'll need lots of small ones anyway.

One trick is to always include orange in your food. For some reason they love this and it makes them breed faster.

 

[jamest0o0]

No noise except for the rustling of their wings sometimes. Clean the frass regularly and no odor. Dubia are illegal for me, so I have discoid which are super similar. I’ve heard dubia move a little slower. Neither flies and can’t climb smooth surfaces. The only other roach I’ve tried is Surinam and I hated them as they are very fast and good climbers. I don’t know if there’s any benefit over feeding smaller vs larger sizes. I usually feed off the larger of my nymphs first as it makes sense to me that way. @jamest0o0 is the bug expert and can certainly offer more info than I can.

Yeah definitely no smell, if your Dubia smell bad then you’re doing something very wrong haha. I do find that their slow movement isn’t as enticing for a lot of chameleons, but they can be trained on them over time in almost all cases. Tbh there are other more enticing species of roaches I would pick over dubia(discoid included), but that’s just me and isn’t that big a deal once you get your cham to like them. There are nutritional differences in small to large, as is with most animals. It’s hard to say exactly what it is. I feel like I read something about it a while back, but I’ll have to dig it up.

IDK about the gout thing. I know plenty of people and myself who almost exclusively feed roaches. No one I know has ever had gout. Most insects are probably rich in purines, crickets included. It wouldn’t really make sense that only roaches would cause it. Usually when someone’s animal has it their husbandry seems off, I’d think dehydration or a kidney issue would be more likely. Maybe supplement imbalances as well. Veileds strip pothos plants without problems(not uric acid, but still filtered through kidneys), I’d think they would process insects fine

 

[ChameLeon_]

Yeah definitely no smell, if your Dubia smell bad then you’re doing something very wrong haha. I do find that their slow movement isn’t as enticing for a lot of chameleons, but they can be trained on them over time in almost all cases. Tbh there are other more enticing species of roaches I would pick over dubia(discoid included), but that’s just me and isn’t that big a deal once you get your cham to like them. There are nutritional differences in small to large, as is with most animals. It’s hard to say exactly what it is. I feel like I read something about it a while back, but I’ll have to dig it up.

IDK about the gout thing. I know plenty of people and myself who almost exclusively feed roaches. No one I know has ever had gout. Most insects are probably rich in purines, crickets included. It wouldn’t really make sense that only roaches would cause it. Usually when someone’s animal has it their husbandry seems off, I’d think dehydration or a kidney issue would be more likely. Maybe supplement imbalances as well. Veileds strip pothos plants without problems(not uric acid, but still filtered through kidneys), I’d think they would process insects fine

One more question, when i buy lets say 50 adults and 50 sub adults. Do i have to sort them out to remove most of the males to achieve the ratio 1:5? And what about when they breed, do i need to pick males only for feeding or something like that? What's your strategy. Thanks!

 

[dinomom]

I keep one bin of adults, and remove the small ones to another holding bin (after that comes the gutloading bin for tomorrow's feeders LOL).

I don't think it matters, but I do that so I can keep a general sense of production by the adults. If it slows down you need to add some "fresh" adults.

You don't need to feed just males, eventually you will have plenty of both.

 

[MissSkittles]

One more question, when i buy lets say 50 adults and 50 sub adults. Do i have to sort them out to remove most of the males to achieve the ratio 1:5? And what about when they breed, do i need to pick males only for feeding or something like that? What's your strategy. Thanks!

I’ve tried to sort out adult males/females to achieve a good breeding ratio, but there were too many that their gender markings weren’t defined enough. Maybe dubia are easier to sex than discoid. Every month or so I’ll remove the babies from the adult bin and I keep them separately. If some of the nymphs get too big for feeding or some of my adults die off, I’ll add to my adult bin. My reasons for separating nymphs from adults is because the adults are icky and I don’t want to risk touching them or have them crawl on me and it’s super easy to grab some feeders when needed.

 

[jamest0o0]

One more question, when i buy lets say 50 adults and 50 sub adults. Do i have to sort them out to remove most of the males to achieve the ratio 1:5? And what about when they breed, do i need to pick males only for feeding or something like that? What's your strategy. Thanks!

If you’re looking for max production, sexing them out is the best way(not that you HAVE to). Since I was working with like 50+ different species of inverts(mostly roaches, but many others too) I would keep a couple separate bins for cham feeders. Usually a few dozen of multiple species Id put in these bins and I’d gutload with the best ingredients I had so they were constantly getting what I’d want my Cham to get. My main colonies got awesome food too, but it was more generalized things like natural whole food horse chow. I tended to pick a lot of males, but it really just depended on the colony. If I had a ton I didn’t care what I’d pick, I’d even grab females to slow things down sometimes. Protein, moisture, ventilation, and heat is what you want for optimal breeding in most species.

 

[ChameLeon_]

Thanks for all the advice guys, appreciate it! One more, how big should the box be? The main box for breeding and the smaller one for nymphs as well. Thanks!

 

[Khrysjam]

I would always say to start a colony. You don’t need to have a massive one for just one animal. I’m certainly not even close to being an expert, but I’d think you could get a decent start with just maybe 3-4 males and 10-12 females. It will take time for them to get busy and start making babies. Keeping them around 90F/32c is ideal to get them breeding. I’m in a hot climate so only need to use a heat mat on the side of the bin in winter. Not sure I can give you quantities of how much they eat, but it isn’t at all expensive. I have a colony of somewhere around 30+ adult discoids (similar to dubia) and every few days I give them about a generous handful of whatever fresh produce I have and some Repashy Bug Burger. I’ve had my colony for a couple of years, so I’ve kind of figured out the right amount to feed them. Currently they are in a tall plastic bin with no substrate…just some stuff to climb on and hide under (egg carton works well). I did have them with about an inch or two of organic soil /cocoa coir mix and dwarf white isopods and springtails and they seemed to like that best based on how much better they made babies.
The initial set up costs are minimal compared to having to buy roaches. The convenience of never running out of feeders is priceless to me. In the past when my colony grew too large, I either gave away or sold the extra.

You're in Florida right? I am too! I just acquired a small Discoid colony from a friend who's leopard geckos wouldn't touch them so they just kept growing lol She couldn't justify throwing them out or letting them die since they were so expensive. I told her I'd take them to feed my cham and beardie. Any tips on dealing with them? She had them on oats "so they wouldn't smell." I have a large critter keeper I had on hand. Will that size suffice or should I put them in something larger?

 

[MissSkittles]

I have 2 separate bins…the big bin for the adults which is bioactive and a smaller bin for the nymphs that is without substrate. The adults have a hide and the nymphs have egg crate. I would put them in a decent sized bin so that they do have space to mate and such.

 

[ChameLeon_]

I have 2 separate bins…the big bin for the adults which is bioactive and a smaller bin for the nymphs that is without substrate. The adults have a hide and the nymphs have egg crate. I would put them in a decent sized bin so that they do have space to mate and such.

So the idea is one bigger bin for breeding and one smaller for feeders. Feed the feeder bin with gutload food and the breeder bin with whatever i have on hand? And what to do if i have big excess of them, do i just move them and kill them? If so how?

 

[MissSkittles]

So the idea is one bigger bin for breeding and one smaller for feeders. Feed the feeder bin with gutload food and the breeder bin with whatever i have on hand? And what to do if i have big excess of them, do i just move them and kill them? If so how?

Well, I feed all of my bugs with the same stuff. I want my breeders to be just as healthy as the feeders. The few times I’ve had excess of either adults or nymphs, I’ve either given them away or sold them. Even though they are icky roaches, I’ve grown too fond of them to intentionally kill any (aside from feeding to my animals).

 

[ChameLeon_]

Well, I feed all of my bugs with the same stuff. I want my breeders to be just as healthy as the feeders. The few times I’ve had excess of either adults or nymphs, I’ve either given them away or sold them. Even though they are icky roaches, I’ve grown too fond of them to intentionally kill any (aside from feeding to my animals).

Im just scared that i will start too big and it will get out of hand very quickly. They are fairly inexpensive here where i live, so i can get one adult for 9 euro cents, how much should i get from nymphs, adults and subadults? I still cant figure it out.. also what do you feed all the time so you dont have to buy more food for them? Kitchen scraps and some bread?

 

[MissSkittles]

Im just scared that i will start too big and it will get out of hand very quickly. They are fairly inexpensive here where i live, so i can get one adult for 9 euro cents, how much should i get from nymphs, adults and subadults? I still cant figure it out.. also what do you feed all the time so you dont have to buy more food for them? Kitchen scraps and some bread?

You can start with 1-2 males and 4-5 female adults. It will take a couple of months for them to reproduce. I’m not sure how many babies each female can have at one time, but I think it’s probably around 8-10. @jamest0o0 is the forum’s bug lord and not sure if he’s around much at this time, but he would have these answers. I have beardies that can’t possibly eat all of the greens (turnip, mustard, dandelion, collard), squashes (butternut, yellow, zucchini), sweet or bell pepper, blueberries & raspberries, etc before they all spoil. I also add in some sweet potato and Repashy Bug Burger. I don’t feed them any grains as a rule.