Should you increase temperatures during infection?

[DocZ]

I’m wondering if anyone has used or uses the strategy of increasing basking and ambient temperature when they are treating infections in their reptiles. It is well established that many biological processes require a certain temperature to increase their effectiveness. Immunological processes in general are more effective at higher temperatures. That’s why mammals have fevers during infections. Reptiles are known to behaviorally increase their temperature when fighting infections
Would it be advantageous to increase temps in your enclosure if you’re treating an infection in your Cham?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145305X16302178?via=ihub

 

[Beman]

I have heard of a lot of vets recommending an increase of roughly 5 degrees to help while they are being medicated. Beman never had health issues so I do not have any first hand experience.

 

[jamest0o0]

You’re the doctor… you tell us

But in all seriousness, I think I read something about this a long time ago, but have no idea what or where. It makes sense, would just have to be careful obviously.

On a side note, maybe you can tell me, but my belief has been that people are too quick to medicate for fevers.

 

[DocZ]

I do it for myself because I feel like crap
But unless its dangerously high, yes it’s probably helping to fight the organism that’s causing the fever and it’s better to leave it alone

 

[janjan20]

I have inadvertently done this with one of mine because he is housed outside (FL weather). He had not one but two areas of abscess in his lower jaw that waxed and waned for over a year. Over that period of time ambient temps were definitely over 85. He never showed signs of illness even being older in age. The infections finally got to the point where they were draining and the bumps were visible enough to know something was going on. Took him in for treatment but I can’t remember if my vet recommended a temp increase.

I also have a soft shell turtle that has been treated for various things over his 20+ year life and the vet also told us to increase basking temp and time.

 

[DocZ]

I have inadvertently done this with one of mine because he is housed outside (FL weather). He had not one but two areas of abscess in his lower jaw that waxed and waned for over a year. Over that period of time ambient temps were definitely over 85. He never showed signs of illness even being older in age. The infections finally got to the point where they were draining and the bumps were visible enough to know something was going on. Took him in for treatment but I can’t remember if my vet recommended a temp increase.

I also have a soft shell turtle that has been treated for various things over his 20+ year life and the vet also told us to increase basking temp and time.

Interesting they said to avoid increasing temperatures

 

[DocZ]

Not surprisingly, @kinyonga has already posted this study
She’s too damn good at this stuff

 

[DocZ]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8396262/

Here’s another, maybe I beat her to this one

 

[kinyonga]

My vet recommended raising the temperature when treating a chameleon for an infection to create this “fake” fever.

Some infections grow best at certain temperatures and I would think that trying to put them out of their optimum range would help to kill them off…or at least make it harder for them to survive.
Remember, I’m not a vet…just my unproven opinion.

Also, if I remember properly, most chameleons studied in the wild seem to like to attain the body temperature at about 30C during the daytime..except for one (C. schubotzi..I think). Again, if I remember properly quite a few of the bacteria and even CANV like temperatures at about 37C. Please check on that though…I might be wrong.

 

[DocZ]

I am not either. If you need a liver transplant, I am pretty good at keeping you alive while a surgeon does their thing
But I’m not an immunologist or infectious disease expert, or a vet.
I’m just interested in finding the best evidence and best ways to treat Chams when they’re sick ☺
Started digging into some immunology of reptiles recently and wanted to share it and see what peoples’ opinions are or what reptile vets have recommended to people

 

[jamest0o0]

I am not either. If you need a liver transplant, I am pretty good at keeping you alive while a surgeon does their thing
But I’m not an immunologist or infectious disease expert, or a vet.
I’m just interested in finding the best evidence and best ways to treat Chams when they’re sick ☺
Started digging into some immunology of reptiles recently and wanted to share it and see what peoples’ opinions are or what reptile vets have recommended to people

Does that make you an anesthesiologist?

 

[kinyonga]

Just found this… @DocZ and others…
“Case studies of disease in reptiles held privately and in other collections over a 12-year period implied that while behaviourally thermoregulated, and imposed, warmer temperatures appeared often to assist recovery, in other eases imposed warmer temperatures accelerated the disease, resulting in rapid deterioration or fatalities. A common feature observed among captive reptiles in early stages of disease was that higher preferred body temperatures were behaviourally sought, while in more advanced and serious cases, lower preferred body temperatures (leading in certain cases to torpor) were behaviourally sought. This communication examines some aspects of the ætiology of disease-associated preferred body temperatures, and suggests that behavioural thermoregulation of body temperature during disease is far more complex than was previously assumed.”…
https://www.anapsid.org/warwick3.html

 

[kinyonga]

Regarding temperatures that infections grow at…
“Perhaps of significance is the fact
that these fungi exhibit varying thermotolerance, with
human-associated species growing well at 35°C (95°F) and
most reptile-associated species being unable to grow or
strongly inhibited at 35°C (Sigler et al., 2013; Schtigel et al.,
2013). Exceptions are N. chlamydospora, N. guarroi, N. pluri-
septata, and N. vriesii, all from lizards, that are only moder-
ately inhibited at 35°C”…
https://www.researchgate.net/public...nizziopsis_Paranannizziopsis_and_Ophidiomyces

 

[jannb]

Many years ago my vet recommended raising the temps for a respirator infection but in later years when Dr. Mader was our vet he never had me raise the temps for any infection.

 

[DocZ]

Does that make you an anesthesiologist?

Yes. I protect people’s lives while masked people attack their bodies with knives

 

[DocZ]

Many years ago my vet recommended raising the temps for a respirator infection but in later years when Dr. Mader was our vet he never had me raise the temps for any infection.

I’ll have to look at Mader’s textbook to see what it says about this (I know he’s not writing the whole thing, but it’s an interesting question )

 

[DocZ]

I finally got around to looking at Mader’s book regarding temperature in infected reptiles.
They note in the text to keep reptiles in the high end of their preferred temperature range during treatment of infections .
It also recommends a digital, dimming, or proportional thermostat on the heat source to prevent on/off cycling. I’m a huge proponent of not ever having a heat source not on a dimming thermostat that maintains the desired temp at all times. Burns would be rarer with this type of control

The next excerpt notes that many endemic pathogens do poorly at higher temps. This makes since because they are attacking ectotherms
They do note that some other pathogens (prossibly more common in captivity?) are comfortable in higher temps
I’d wonder if a wild Cham would ever be exposed to these

Interestingly, from my first browsing through Jacobsen and Garner’s Infectious diseases and pathology of reptiles doesn’t explicitly mention temperature control

I haven’t dug through the resources for this short text in a 1400+ page book, but I’ll take a look and see how they came to the relatively short conclusion

 

[kinyonga]

This is interesting…
“When reptile pathogens are treated at higher temperatures the Mean Inhibitory Concentration (MIC) needed to achieve effective treatment significantly decreases. This allows for a lower dose of antibiotic to be given, another positive factor when dealing with potentially nephrotoxic drugs.”…
“elevated ambient temperatures have been shown to stimulate the host's immune system and aid in fighting disease in other ways already discussed”…
https://www.dvm360.com/view/antibiotic-therapy-reptiles-proceedings-0