SICK Cham-Veterinary Visit Outcome!

[Yanely]

My Chameleon has been sick according to me, so i took her to the Vet. Her behavior was not the same. She seemed lethargic and both her eyes were constantly closed. She was not eating or drinking water, and was mostly staying in one spot without moving much. I was freaking out and had to wait anxiously for Saturday and Sunday to be over because I the earliest possible Vet appointment was the following Monday. During the weekend Mika was not getting better, so i had to force feed her food and water. Monday morning she had one eye open and looked somewhat better.

We arrived to our Vet appointment only to be seen by the veterinarian for about 15 minutes. She said that Mika seemed fine to her. She weight her (5gm) told me she should eat more. These were my questions..... and her answers....

Me: Why are her eyes closed?

Vet: I dont know it happens a lot with chameleons. They are very difficult to take care of!

Me: What about her behavior? She has been low in activity and I had to force feed her for 2 days!

Vet: I'm not sure. She looks fine to me, very alert! I don't want to go and give her treatment to flush her intestine, because she's little and i don't think she is in critical condition.

Me: Oh ok!


Anyway!... So then she went and gave me some eye drops anyway. Eyedrops would help keep moist in her eyes! She said that maybe my terrarium is not retaining enough humidity since its a screen terrarium. She said a screen cage is ideal, but it requires to fight more for humidity. My range was (60s-mid70s) She said Mika needed a higher humidity range then what I was providing. She recommended i get an air pump mister! Then she talked to me about food and said that she could provide me with something that could enhance her growth and health. (I will show you pictures of what she gave me below) So that was it! She gave me a follow up appointment in 2 weeks to see how she is doing.

Ok so know i want to hear what some of you think about everything! I will show you pictures of everything and i want to hear what you guys think, because i still look and feel like this.... !!!!


Pictures of what i got out of Vet visit:

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These other Pictures is to give you an idea of what i have, Info about my cham and what i feed...Crickets, worms, flies, ect.

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SORRY about the LONG Post guys! I just really want to give you guys as much insight as i possibly can so that you can really give me good advise! Do you guys agree with the Vet?

 

[Yanely]

Oh and btw the booster she said to use 1/4 of a table spoon only for my 5g 3months old Cham!

 

[sittnlowon22s]

Maybe someone else who has more experience with vets can chime in. I like your setup btw. Good luck with mika. Hopefully she gets better soon.

 

[camimom]

What was your basking temp?

what UVB bulb are you using?

How close to the cage is it?

How often do you mist?

Unless Mika is a hatchling, you dont need fruit flies, too small forher.

Can you post some photos of her please?

 

[werecat]

So firstly I am not an expert but here are my thoughts. 1. Judging by the vet's answers to your questions she doesn't seem to know much about chameleons. 2. The "Booster" supplement she gave you says to mix 1 tbsp with 1 lb of food which means that the vet's recommendation of 1/4 tbsp for your animal still seems high. I mean I don't think any chameleon eats a 1/4 lb of food at any one feeding. The dosage directions of this product just don't seem like it was designed for chameleons or any other insectivore for that matter. 3. Also, the Critical Care supplement says on the package that it is for herbivores which chameleons are not so again I have concerns about using this product.

I know it can be hard to find a vet that is familiar with chameleons and many people end up going through what you are going through. Please do fill out the "How to ask for help" form so that we have a better idea of your setup, lighting, temperatures, and supplementation. Pictures of the cage look nice but I would remove the substrate/dirt at the bottom as this can be injested and cause intestinal blockages (which could be a reason she's not eating). Has she been pooping?

http://https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

Unfortunately I would also recommend a visit to another vet. There aren't many in SoCal but I could recommend mine who's in Yorba Linda. I'm not even sure how long a trek it is for you and I know it means spending more money but he knows his stuff and many people in SoCal trust him with their chameleons. PM me if you want his info.

 

[Tyaeda]

So the vet doesn't know what's wrong with your cham, but somehow knows what to give her to make her healthy? They sure did charge you a lot for a cham that "seems fine".

No offense, but I believe that your vet is not very knowledgeable with chameleons, and may be taking advantage of you and your unfortunate situation. Eye problems, could be a sign of many different issues, that sometimes do not even have anything to do with their eyes. It's not normal for them to close their eyes like that, and it can be a sign of something serious.

If you are looking to get another vet, ask questions over the phone before you commit to an appointment. Tell them that you had a bad experience, and that you cannot afford to pay people to keep guessing. Ask them if they have many chameleon patients. If they say that they don't get very many in, don't go there. Unless the vet wants to run blood tests, or knows what they're looking for, you should be able to get a few "possible" diagnosis over the phone. Don't take a "I won't know until I see her" response, you should ask what it can possibly be, just to gauge your vet's knowledge on the subject. For example, your last vet didn't think there was anything serious going on, and a good vet will deter you from getting treatment (even bringing the cham in) if they don't think something bad is going on.



If your UVB bulb looks like this:

You should change it to one that looks like this:

I noticed in your last thread that you gave her some Vit A and that seemed help a bit. I know she regressed, but it takes more than one treatment to see the full effects. Also, the damages caused by Vit A deficiencies may be irreversible if gone untreated for so long.
When I gave my cham Vit A, I did so by using cod liver oil in gel cap form. I punctured the gel cap (with a clean push pin) and squeezed a small drop on one or two feeders every day, for about a week. Since then Mr.Pink has fully recovered.

I noticed that you use the same multivitamin as me, and if you look at the nutrients chart, you'll notice that there is no Vit A in it whatsoever. I wouldn't rule a deficiency out just yet.


Also, I noticed that you buy pre-gutloaded crickets. I don't know if this is causing anything, but you should really consider gutloading on your own. You want to feed the crickets a few hours before you feed them to your cham, to ensure that all the good stuff is still in the crickets... and to make sure that it is actually the right stuff for them to eat. I use carrots (which are high in Vit A), apples, oranges, dandelion (awesome calcium ratio) and collard greens. For dry I use oats, dried kelp, yeast, and sesame seeds. There's a member here with the username Sandrachameleon who has many articles filled with gutloading info.


Also, I'm a little worried about that critical care food. It says that it's for herbivores - chameleons are insectivores, while Veileds will sometimes eat small amounts of vegetation, it's not a staple of their diet, and shouldn't make up more than 10 - 15 % of the food they eat. That food contains lot's of good things, but the amounts might be wrong for chameleons. For example, it has Vit D3 in it, which everyone knows is only supposed to be offered twice a month.... same with the minerals and vits found in the powdered supplements you dust your crickets with. I would be really concerned about overdosing. It really seems like your vet just sold you a bunch of stuff that seems to help animals with a wide range of issues, but they won't deal with the problem you have specifically. I wouldn't listen to the vet, it really looks like they're just trying to milk you for whatever you're willing to spend.

All in all, I would try one treatment at a time, and take note of any improvement. If you throw a bunch of remedies all in at once, it can help, but you won't know what it was that caused the problem.

I would change your UVB if you don't already have a linear tube first.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Please provide answers, in detail, to all of the questions in the how to ask for help sticky.

 

[junglefries]

help

Side note: exact same invoice receipt my vet uses. I have to leave house to pick up kid from school. please post updates to previous questions from other users. I will look at all of thread(s) including previous one(s) & try to give you a more difinitive response. if you can, i know they are a mile long, but fill in that ask for help form. Definitely use the linear 5.0 bulb as opposed to coil. see if you can get her outside in shaded area. Stay with her the whole time, in order that she doesn't overheat or get stressed. i can't remember if you said the type of cham you had or pix posted. post any pix you can also (overview, both sides, and forward facing pix) . sorry i am late by 10 min already so i know this jumbled, way past in a hurry. i will try to post at 8pm. try ferretinmyshoes or laurie, if they haven't chimed in. I am on phone and can't backtrack for answers on my side.

 

[Yanely]

What was your basking temp?

75w

what UVB bulb are you using?

Zoo Med 5.0

How close to the cage is it?

6in


How often do you mist?

3-4 times a day

Unless Mika is a hatchling, you dont need fruit flies, too small forher.

Oh ok Thank you!

Can you post some photos of her please?

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[Yanely]

Thank you!!!

So the vet doesn't know what's wrong with your cham, but somehow knows what to give her to make her healthy? They sure did charge you a lot for a cham that "seems fine".

No offense, but I believe that your vet is not very knowledgeable with chameleons, and may be taking advantage of you and your unfortunate situation. Eye problems, could be a sign of many different issues, that sometimes do not even have anything to do with their eyes. It's not normal for them to close their eyes like that, and it can be a sign of something serious.

If you are looking to get another vet, ask questions over the phone before you commit to an appointment. Tell them that you had a bad experience, and that you cannot afford to pay people to keep guessing. Ask them if they have many chameleon patients. If they say that they don't get very many in, don't go there. Unless the vet wants to run blood tests, or knows what they're looking for, you should be able to get a few "possible" diagnosis over the phone. Don't take a "I won't know until I see her" response, you should ask what it can possibly be, just to gauge your vet's knowledge on the subject. For example, your last vet didn't think there was anything serious going on, and a good vet will deter you from getting treatment (even bringing the cham in) if they don't think something bad is going on.

I noticed in your last thread that you gave her some Vit A and that seemed help a bit. I know she regressed, but it takes more than one treatment to see the full effects. Also, the damages caused by Vit A deficiencies may be irreversible if gone untreated for so long.
When I gave my cham Vit A, I did so by using cod liver oil in gel cap form. I punctured the gel cap (with a clean push pin) and squeezed a small drop on one or two feeders every day, for about a week. Since then Mr.Pink has fully recovered.

I noticed that you use the same multivitamin as me, and if you look at the nutrients chart, you'll notice that there is no Vit A in it whatsoever. I wouldn't rule a deficiency out just yet.


Also, I noticed that you buy pre-gutloaded crickets. I don't know if this is causing anything, but you should really consider gutloading on your own. You want to feed the crickets a few hours before you feed them to your cham, to ensure that all the good stuff is still in the crickets... and to make sure that it is actually the right stuff for them to eat. I use carrots (which are high in Vit A), apples, oranges, dandelion (awesome calcium ratio) and collard greens. For dry I use oats, dried kelp, yeast, and sesame seeds. There's a member here with the username Sandrachameleon who has many articles filled with gutloading info.


Also, I'm a little worried about that critical care food. It says that it's for herbivores - chameleons are insectivores, while Veileds will sometimes eat small amounts of vegetation, it's not a staple of their diet, and shouldn't make up more than 10 - 15 % of the food they eat. That food contains lot's of good things, but the amounts might be wrong for chameleons. For example, it has Vit D3 in it, which everyone knows is only supposed to be offered twice a month.... same with the minerals and vits found in the powdered supplements you dust your crickets with. I would be really concerned about overdosing. It really seems like your vet just sold you a bunch of stuff that seems to help animals with a wide range of issues, but they won't deal with the problem you have specifically. I wouldn't listen to the vet, it really looks like they're just trying to milk you for whatever you're willing to spend.

All in all, I would try one treatment at a time, and take note of any improvement. If you throw a bunch of remedies all in at once, it can help, but you won't know what it was that caused the problem.

I would change your UVB if you don't already have a linear tube first.

You have been very helpful thank you SO much for your time i really appreciate it! I will take in everything you said. I will be getting cod liver capsules and see if her eye problems improve. Yes you are right about the food that's why i posted everything here because i was when Vet gave me all of this, but i didn't want to refuse it and come across as arrogant with my questioning towards her recommendations, but i was really confused! I too noticed the D3! I tend to read a lot and what she gave me just seemed contradictory to a lot of the readings for chameleon care. I find this a problem to my learning. I am always finding contradictions with chameleon care facts. Anyway these are the lights i have...

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[camimom]

I would mist more often.

I would raise the UVB bulb up an inch or so.

I wouldnt use most of the crap you got from the vet.

 

[carol5208]

I noticed your vet did not do a fecal. You should have one done to rule out parasites.

 

[Tyaeda]

You have been very helpful thank you SO much for your time i really appreciate it! I will take in everything you said. I will be getting cod liver capsules and see if her eye problems improve. Yes you are right about the food that's why i posted everything here because i was when Vet gave me all of this, but i didn't want to refuse it and come across as arrogant with my questioning towards her recommendations, but i was really confused! I too noticed the D3! I tend to read a lot and what she gave me just seemed contradictory to a lot of the readings for chameleon care. I find this a problem to my learning. I am always finding contradictions with chameleon care facts. Anyway these are the lights i have...

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One of the vets I took my cham too told me that commercial gutload was better for my cham than the fresh fruit, and veggies I was providing. He also told me that my chams cage should be at least 80% humidity at all times!!! He told me it was a shed problem, but gave me anti-biotics?!? Yeah, I know where you're coming from when it comes to being confused. My vet seemed to get a little irritated by my questions, and would interrupt me everytime I told him what I was concerned about.
You want to trust these people, and their education, but really unless they specialize in reptiles, AND have a lot of experience with chameleons, it's likely that they aren't sure. Unfortunately some will go on to sell you things you don't need... they're in it for the money, and it's sad really.

That UVB is pretty much the same as the coil bulbs that you shouldn't be using. If you get the straight one, it may solve the problem all together within a few days. They're a little more expensive, and you have to buy the fixture for it, which can cost around $50 - $60, but it's much better, even the peace of mind is worth it.

If you don't see any improvement after you change the lights, and you do the cod liver oil for a few days, I'd be worried about a possible infection which you will need a vet to diagnose and treat.

Since it's both eyes (off and on) I doubt there's anything stuck in there, so there isn't much need to flush her eyes out with saline or anything.



When she was eating by herself, did she have a problem extending her tongue very far? This is what made me believe that it was the Vit A deficiency. What happened was he would open both eyes (which he was able to do if he wanted to, but he was uncomfortable with it) to target his prey, but if it was more than 4-5 inches from his face, he couldn't reach it. People said he was just missing because of his eyes, but I know he was able to see the prey fine, he just couldn't reach.

If you catch her with one eye open, try and get her attention with a cricket, or one of her favourite feeders. If she takes interest, try and let her catch it and see what happens.



What colour is the inside of her mouth?

 

[junglefries]

late post - sorry

If petco adopts out their chams the way petsmart does, you should be able to get your chams vet history (which vet she saw and previous diagnosis). They are supposed to adopt out the animal until it shows signs of healing or recovery. I have several from petsmart that i was given all their info on with the cham. It is a way of continuing their treatment. Also, at 3 months your veil should be eating crickets by now. If on the small side, look for 1/4 crickets and small superworms. Small silkworms will be great for calcium and small hornerworms will give him a little gut to work with. A mom and pop petstore will carry all of these. I definitely agree with the vitamin A. I hadn't heard about the cod oil, I am familiar with using the fish oil. Just squeeze a little bit onto the cricket and feed your cham. Please discard the prepacked crickets. They usually all die pretty quickly from my experience and are more expensive. Get you some bulk crickets and start feeding them: wheat germ. bee pollen. hibiscus powder. powdered milk. flukers high calcium cricket food. orange slices. carrots. apples. turnip or mustard greens. dandelion greens. honey. spirulina. (All organic fruits and veggies) Wait for 36 hours of crickets eating this diet before feeding to cham. As far as the herbivore vitamins your vet gave you: veils are omnivores. The vitamins may have an impact but truthfully I do not know. For lights: I use Zoomed Aqualamp bi-linear T5 HO hoods with one daylight bulb and one Reptisun 5.0. Both bulbs being T5 HO of course. For pregnant females or more requiring females like panthers, I use two Reptisun bulbz in the hood. (on amazon, the hood will run $79.99 & free shipping). A bit expensive, but quality is unmatched. As previously said about 20min outdoors, definitely keep up. I would build an exact replica (close as possible) cage outdoors and keep cham in it 2hrs a day. This will also cut down the amount of uvb light time required while indoors. Stick with the vitamin A theory. Get a fecal float also, $22 @ my vet (no appt needed). Add as much feeder variety as you can, that will up your chams vitamins as all feeders have different nutritional value. Calcium x3weekly. D3 x2 monthly. Multivitamin x2 weekly. If you start keeping your cham outdoors, make sure to adjust uvb time and D3 amounts accordingly. I hope this helps and works out for you.

 

[Yanely]

Mika is going great!

Hey guys I wanted to share with you that Mika is doing SO much better! Both eyes are back to normal. She is eating well, she seems active and alert! Thank you SO SO SOOOO much for your time and advice!!!!

 

[Eltortu]

Good to read that she is doing better.

 

[teejayteej]

great...glad to hear that she is better. did you ever figure out what was her problem?
anyway glad to hear that she is back to herself again.

 

[jackschamnewbie]

Glad to hear that!

 

[ChamLady]

Good luck with that beautiful little baby. Please don't go back to that vet. I feel that my 4yr old veiled Cham died in March due to incorrect vet care and treatment. It was just too much guesswork as I look back on it, and he lost a client when I lost my boy.