Silkworms! How to hatch eggs?

[Ghostbirb]

So my friend recently bought some silkworms for his crested gecko and they pupated. Due to them being to large for his gecko when moths, we did a swap and now I have some silkworm cocoons! Well I was waiting for them to emerge from their cocoons and two did and have already started breeding :O
They sure are quick!
So I’ve looked through some of the silkworm raising threads and I have a few question for those of you who are silkworm veterans
How many eggs do one pair of silk moths have? How long do they breed for? How long do eggs take to hatch, and finally on a scale of 1-10 (1 being easy and 10 being super difficult) is it to raise/hatch silkworms.

 

[MissSkittles]

Yay! They made it out! I have always had mixed success with silkworm eggs and am by far not the greatest at breeding them. I not too long ago hatched out well over 1300 eggs by accident (they really didn’t look like that many) and the last of them are now emerging from cocoons and breeding. I can’t say whether what I do is right or wrong, but here it is.
Every morning I check and will find those that have emerged from their cocoons have usually already paired up. The unpaired males are still trying and flapping and dancing around manically, so I remove the couple to a private Dixie cup. I’ll check in the evening to see if they’re still going at it. If they have detached from each other, I try to find the male (females are much rounder, don’t flap manically and she might have even started laying her eggs). I remove the male so momma can do her job undisturbed. If by the next morning they are still paired, I will separate them. Identify the male (he may flap rhythmically if jostled or look for skinnier butt end) and place gentle pressure just a mm or 2 above his butt and he should release. I use tongs. I’ll see if I can grab some pics of mine. Momma lays her eggs. She may ‘pee’ right before a nasty iodine colored liquid. I try to catch her so it doesn’t get over the eggs. Anyhow, let the eggs sit and darken for a few days. When they are looking pretty dark gray or black, put them in a warm fridge for 2-3 months. I find they do need a diapause like this. Then I take out what I need, put it in a clean little container with a lid (plastic Petri dishes like what egg sellers use are perfect). I put somewhere warm and a bit humid. If I don’t think they are getting enough humidity, I’ll moisten a tiny piece of balled up paper towel and put it in their container and refresh it daily until they hatch. I can’t recall how many days it takes for them to hatch, but I think it’s anywhere from a few days to about a week. They are tiny itty bitty little black worms - kegos. I have old eyes so need a magnifying glass to see them. I add tiny bits of fresh chow a couple of times a day and by the time I’ve run out of room to put fresh chow, they are usually starting to turn white and are barely big enough to gently be moved with a toothpick or very soft small paintbrush. It can take a few weeks until they get big enough to be fed off. Once they reach that size, they grow much faster. Unless I’m overwhelmed with eggs, I’ll have hatched out enough to become moths and make me more eggs.

 

[MissSkittles]

Ok, I was able to get some video for you. I also took some pics which may help.

These are pretty easy to determine gender as the male is the thin one and the female is quite plump. Although I didn’t get a pic, the male’s butt is also visible within the perimeter of the female’s.


Males butts will be slanted upwards at the tip


Female’s butts will be flat


No idea how many eggs are in here, but this is about the ‘normal’ amount that one moth usually will lay. The eggs start out cream colored - you can see one towards the center (it’s infertile) and the fertile eggs will darken like the rest and that’s when to pop them in a warm fridge. Wine fridges are perfect if you have one. I have one of those small 6 pack type Walmart fridges that doesn’t get very cold and is perfect.


The males will at times flap their wings rhythmically when mating.


Sometimes the females will flap their wings and be hunched over, almost in a fetal position. I believe this is a sign of some distress since they usually will either pass fluids or lay eggs immediately after separation.

 

[Ghostbirb]

Ok, I was able to get some video for you. I also took some pics which may help.

These are pretty easy to determine gender as the male is the thin one and the female is quite plump. Although I didn’t get a pic, the male’s butt is also visible within the perimeter of the female’s.
View attachment 355713

Males butts will be slanted upwards at the tip
View attachment 355715

Female’s butts will be flat
View attachment 355716

No idea how many eggs are in here, but this is about the ‘normal’ amount that one moth usually will lay. The eggs start out cream colored - you can see one towards the center (it’s infertile) and the fertile eggs will darken like the rest and that’s when to pop them in a warm fridge. Wine fridges are perfect if you have one. I have one of those small 6 pack type Walmart fridges that doesn’t get very cold and is perfect.
View attachment 355714

The males will at times flap their wings rhythmically when mating.


Sometimes the females will flap their wings and be hunched over, almost in a fetal position. I believe this is a sign of some distress since they usually will either pass fluids or lay eggs immediately after separation.

Thank you so much for sharing? I am curious, is the fridge part mandatory/what exactly is it used for.

 

[MissSkittles]

Thank you so much for sharing? I am curious, is the fridge part mandatory/what exactly is it used for.

They need a cool period - a diapause. I’ve tried to hatch the eggs right away and nothing ever happened. I watched the eggs for months until giving up and tossing them. I’ve gotten the best results when the eggs have about. 2-3 month diapause.

 

[Ghostbirb]

They need a cool period - a diapause. I’ve tried to hatch the eggs right away and nothing ever happened. I watched the eggs for months until giving up and tossing them. I’ve gotten the best results when the eggs have about. 2-3 month diapause.

wow that is quite long, well I might as well give it a try

 

[Ghostbirb]

They need a cool period - a diapause. I’ve tried to hatch the eggs right away and nothing ever happened. I watched the eggs for months until giving up and tossing them. I’ve gotten the best results when the eggs have about. 2-3 month diapause.

Also I’m curious, you said warm fridge earlier? So what temp do you diapause them at?

 

[MissSkittles]

Also I’m curious, you said warm fridge earlier? So what temp do you diapause them at?

I think it’s about 50*.

 

[Steve A]

I don't know much about this, but I have a tiny bit of experience lol The tiniest bit. So when I first noticed cocoons, I used to remove them from the critter cage I keep my silks in, and put them in their own bin. However, most of them could not make it out and I can't help but think that may have been BECAUSE I moved them (although, what I gather is they are a crapshoot to make it out of their cocoons anyway). Since then I decided to let them stay where they cocoon in the critter cage (they typically cocoon high in the cage in the corners) and just focus my cleaning on the bottom. So far I have only had 1 cocoon since deciding this, but it came out perfect. The healthiest looking moth I've had so far.

And Spike thinks she (I believe it was a she based on belly size) was delicious

I am going to leave them untouched going forward to see if there is any difference in success rate JUST doing this, without making any other adjustments. If I find anything I will let everyone know on here.

 

[Ghostbirb]

@MissSkittles
It kind of hard to see but what gender do you think this little guy is? I was thinking male but I’m doubting myself

Also my previous pair are still connected this morning, I tried the separation thing but it didn’t work. Should I just leave them?

 

[MissSkittles]

@MissSkittles
It kind of hard to see but what gender do you think this little guy is? I was thinking male but I’m doubting myself
View attachment 355727


Also my previous pair are still connected this morning, I tried the separation thing but it didn’t work. Should I just leave them?

I can’t see that well but it looks like it may have the tip of its butt sticking up. Only the boys will flap their wings like crazy and move with their butt leading the way, searching for girl butt. I have had some girls do this too, but they had already laid some eggs to confirm their gender and I suspect they were having trouble or pain passing the rest. I had one poor girl this morning doing that and in case I am correct and she was distressed, I had Kali give her a quick peace. The boys will also have a more elongated body in a triangular shape. The girls are rounder and at their back end it’s almost like a short necked bottle shape. Sometimes lacking a better option, some of the boys will pair up with each other. Sometimes it is really hard to tell which is which. When they emerge, they usually pair up right away. I’ll put the rest together for a bit and maybe a couple will find each other and pair. Every couple gets their own cup. If I can’t separate them, I’ll try again a little later or just leave them to it on their own. The main reason I do separate them is so the girl can lay her eggs in peace. I keep the males in one little critter keeper and the girls in another. If in doubt about gender, you can give each separated moth it’s own little cup. I do line all I can with wax or parchment paper. Often the girls haven’t quite completed their egg laying and also their fluids dry or evaporate a bit quicker on wax paper. Oh…I do not remove the eggs off of whatever they have been laid on. In the past I’ve cut out the pieces of paper cup or wax paper where the eggs were, but I think this time around I’m just going to put all the cups in a baggy in the fridge.
I wish I knew how the professional silky breeders do everything. I know there’s got to be an easier way than I do things. There are some videos on YouTube on various stages of silkworm care that I would guess may be from the silk producers. There may be some newer ones than those which I watched.

 

[Ghostbirb]

I can’t see that well but it looks like it may have the tip of its butt sticking up. Only the boys will flap their wings like crazy and move with their butt leading the way, searching for girl butt. I have had some girls do this too, but they had already laid some eggs to confirm their gender and I suspect they were having trouble or pain passing the rest. I had one poor girl this morning doing that and in case I am correct and she was distressed, I had Kali give her a quick peace. The boys will also have a more elongated body in a triangular shape. The girls are rounder and at their back end it’s almost like a short necked bottle shape. Sometimes lacking a better option, some of the boys will pair up with each other. Sometimes it is really hard to tell which is which. When they emerge, they usually pair up right away. I’ll put the rest together for a bit and maybe a couple will find each other and pair. Every couple gets their own cup. If I can’t separate them, I’ll try again a little later or just leave them to it on their own. The main reason I do separate them is so the girl can lay her eggs in peace. I keep the males in one little critter keeper and the girls in another. If in doubt about gender, you can give each separated moth it’s own little cup. I do line all I can with wax or parchment paper. Often the girls haven’t quite completed their egg laying and also their fluids dry or evaporate a bit quicker on wax paper. Oh…I do not remove the eggs off of whatever they have been laid on. In the past I’ve cut out the pieces of paper cup or wax paper where the eggs were, but I think this time around I’m just going to put all the cups in a baggy in the fridge.
I wish I knew how the professional silky breeders do everything. I know there’s got to be an easier way than I do things. There are some videos on YouTube on various stages of silkworm care that I would guess may be from the silk producers. There may be some newer ones than those which I watched.

Thank you so much for all the information! The female is now in a smaller cup on her own with a paper towel. We will see what happens, if everything works out over the next few months maybe I’ll get attached to breeding silkworms.. if not then it will have been a fun ride!
Nachito loved some of the other moths tho! They are perfect size for her

 

[MissSkittles]

It can be a challenge and I’ve had some total failures, but I love the silkies and so do all of my critters.

I don't know much about this, but I have a tiny bit of experience lol The tiniest bit. So when I first noticed cocoons, I used to remove them from the critter cage I keep my silks in, and put them in their own bin. However, most of them could not make it out and I can't help but think that may have been BECAUSE I moved them (although, what I gather is they are a crapshoot to make it out of their cocoons anyway). Since then I decided to let them stay where they cocoon in the critter cage (they typically cocoon high in the cage in the corners) and just focus my cleaning on the bottom. So far I have only had 1 cocoon since deciding this, but it came out perfect. The healthiest looking moth I've had so far.

And Spike thinks she (I believe it was a she based on belly size) was delicious

I am going to leave them untouched going forward to see if there is any difference in success rate JUST doing this, without making any other adjustments. If I find anything I will let everyone know on here.

I’ve wondered at times about if moving them can cause them to perish. However, I’ve had some that formed their chrysalis without any cocoon and the poor things roll around and I’ll admit to dropping them by accident…yet they somehow still emerge. If I have an empty cocoon, I’ll clean out the bits and put the little oddball in. Maybe moving them too soon before they’ve full transformed into their chrysalis, but I don’t know. I usually have a percentage that never emerges and out of curiousity will cut the cocoon open. Some are black mushy chrysalis and some never quite made it to that. Some that haven’t been able to fully escape their cocoons that I help out, usually they only live a few hours or so and are deformed. All info is good info so do please share any findings.

 

[dinomom]

Also I’m curious, you said warm fridge earlier? So what temp do you diapause them at?

I do mine in the regular fridge, in the drawer that I think is for cheese? They are in petri dishes which I tape together; if too much air they will dry out. And having experimented with different time periods, mine do better with a 6 month cold period. I write date laid right on the paper that the eggs are laid on.

 

[dinomom]

I can’t see that well but it looks like it may have the tip of its butt sticking up. Only the boys will flap their wings like crazy and move with their butt leading the way, searching for girl butt. I have had some girls do this too, but they had already laid some eggs to confirm their gender and I suspect they were having trouble or pain passing the rest. I had one poor girl this morning doing that and in case I am correct and she was distressed, I had Kali give her a quick peace. The boys will also have a more elongated body in a triangular shape. The girls are rounder and at their back end it’s almost like a short necked bottle shape. Sometimes lacking a better option, some of the boys will pair up with each other. Sometimes it is really hard to tell which is which. When they emerge, they usually pair up right away. I’ll put the rest together for a bit and maybe a couple will find each other and pair. Every couple gets their own cup. If I can’t separate them, I’ll try again a little later or just leave them to it on their own. The main reason I do separate them is so the girl can lay her eggs in peace. I keep the males in one little critter keeper and the girls in another. If in doubt about gender, you can give each separated moth it’s own little cup. I do line all I can with wax or parchment paper. Often the girls haven’t quite completed their egg laying and also their fluids dry or evaporate a bit quicker on wax paper. Oh…I do not remove the eggs off of whatever they have been laid on. In the past I’ve cut out the pieces of paper cup or wax paper where the eggs were, but I think this time around I’m just going to put all the cups in a baggy in the fridge.
I wish I knew how the professional silky breeders do everything. I know there’s got to be an easier way than I do things. There are some videos on YouTube on various stages of silkworm care that I would guess may be from the silk producers. There may be some newer ones than those which I watched.

I use the wax paper, too. I use paintbrush to put the newly hatched on a piece of wax paper in a petri dish with food. The top on the petri dish keeps them and the food from drying out too fast. I keep them in there until they are white or as long as I can.
Also I used to use the gutter screen to raise them on. But, I have discovered that I do much better also keeping the growing worms on wax paper in an open container. Before I used to get a lot of the diarrhea/wasting illness with the adults and now hardly ever lose one.

 

[dinomom]

@MissSkittles
It kind of hard to see but what gender do you think this little guy is? I was thinking male but I’m doubting myself
View attachment 355727


Also my previous pair are still connected this morning, I tried the separation thing but it didn’t work. Should I just leave them?

I never separate mine, they usually do so themselves after a couple of days. Then I feed the males off and the females can lay eggs.

 

[MissSkittles]

I never separate mine, they usually do so themselves after a couple of days. Then I feed the males off and the females can lay eggs.

Phew! I was afraid I’d look gender biased to admit that I feed the boys to my animals and leave the girls to do their jobs and have some nice R&R after.

 

[dinomom]

LOL well the girls get theirs, too it just takes a little longer

After all, the alternative is that they just starve to death and die which I really hate to see. If and when that happens (for example chams are too stuffed...) the dead make their way into one of several hundred hungry pitcher plant mouths.

 

[Ghostbirb]

So my silk moth has started to lay her eggs, yay! But she laid some on the side of the container and not fully on the paper towel that was lining the bottom. Should I just leave it as its the container that I plan to put in the fridge or should I somehow move the eggs?
Edit: also how do you know when she’s fully done laying?

 

[MissSkittles]

So my silk moth has started to lay her eggs, yay! But she laid some on the side of the container and not fully on the paper towel that was lining the bottom. Should I just leave it as its the container that I plan to put in the fridge or should I somehow move the eggs?
Edit: also how do you know when she’s fully done laying?

It all depends on what type of container you’ve used and what your preference is. Smooth or slick sided containers you can usually gently rub or push the eggs to detach and then have them loose. The first few times I bred my silkies I used paper towel too, but quickly switched to wax paper and small Dixie cups…I can’t remember why though. Ugh! My memory sometimes is crazy! I think it was because of the absorbency of their fluids in the paper towel messing up the eggs ability to hatch properly…maybe. Their hatching, mating and making eggs is messy business. I saw one video where they used only wax paper or parchment paper for the eggs. Another (farming type video) I’m not sure what they had the eggs laid on, but it seems like it may have been plastic or something. I like the cups.
How to tell when she’s done laying…that is a great question. I’ve been struggling with that for the past 2 days. After giving them at least a good 14+ hours to get it done, I’ll find some of the girls still moving their little bodies like they are still laying eggs. I pick them up and they lay exactly one egg on my hand, continue moving like there’s more to come and then nothing. I’ll put them in a clean cup to see if they lay more (so I can learn more too) and nothing happens thru the next 12+ hours. I put them in the girl bin and then after another time period, I find freshly laid eggs in the bin. This is why I put the girls in their own R&R bin after giving a day to lay their eggs and why the bin is lined with wax paper.
Often it seems there’s no rhyme nor reason to be had. One of the perfectly formed plump gorgeous little girls I’ll find has passed away after just a few hours of laying some of her eggs. The small very deformed girl who can barely move not only manages to lay a good batch of eggs, but will live for days. Every single time I’ve bred silkies, there has always been way more boys than girls, by a lot! This time I’ve had a few days where there’s mostly girls and maybe one boy emerge. It’s always a new chance to learn more.