Simulation of Seasons

schendricks

schendricks

New Member
Hello everyone,

I have some questions for those of you who take extra care in varying your artificial microclimates (viz., temperature, humidity, rainfall, lighting) to reflect the natural climatic fluctuations in your chameleons' habitats of origin. How, when, and to what degree do you alter these values over the course of a year? As I am slowly and deliberately preparing to care for a male F. pardalis as my first chameleon, I am interested mostly in the methods employed for this species. However, I also value and enjoy chameleon-related knowledge for its own sake, so please contribute with regard to the care of other species as well. I'm sure all keepers and enthusiasts present will benefit from such information.

Weather in the coastal lowlands in Madagascar according to Necas, 1999:

Average yearly temperatures of 22-28˚C (72-82˚F), with daily variations of 6˚C​
Summer highs of 40˚C/140˚F​
Relative humidity between 70% and 100%​
Rainy season from November to March (Nevertheless, highly humid dry season)​
Yearly precipitation of ~2,000 mm/79 in​

Anyone try to recreate all of these or other values? Necas doesn't speak much to the time and rate of change for these values or at all to daylight changes--who knows about those?

Finally, what of the accuracy/currency of Necas' data? It is eleven years old. Moreover and to the side, how "revised and updated," over the 1999 edition, is the 2004 edition of "Chameleons: Nature's Hidden Jewels"? If there's substantial new information, I may purchase it, but if it mostly corrects typos and mistranslations (of which there are many in the 1999)--meh.

Thanks for any help, guys!

Sincerely,

S. Hendricks
 
Perhaps it seems that most of the answer to my question is provided by the Necas data, but I'm interested to know whether keepers at the forum find it necessary or helpful to simulate the weather patterns. After searching the forums and combing the internet and literature, there doesn't seem to be much testimony. If anyone were able to point me to such threads or sites, that would be helpful, too.
 
Interesting topic! I have a lot of personal notes and observations about this very topic but quite honestly I'm not sure where to start.

Briefly, I work with rare montane species from the bitaeniatus complex and I simulate seasonal variations (temperatures, humidity, insect availability, day length). I've found a lot of the species only breed once a year (T. goetzei, T. bitaeniatus, T. werneri) and need these annual cues to prompt them to cycle. Interestingly there are some members of the family that reproduce several times a year (T. sternfeldi, T. ellioti) so the cues aren't necessarily needed for them but does it make for a more natural environment and thus healthier and longer lived specimens as well as their offspring.

As a side thought; It always puzzles me why people say that it's perfectly fine to keep F. pardalis at 50% humidity, 80-85F temps, 12 hour days and 20 minutes of misting three times a day all year long. That does not happen in Madagascar. Just because that species tolerates those parameters in captivity doesn't mean they are thriving in captivity with said guidelines.

Cheers,
Trace
 
I think "wintering" your animals can prove to be very beneficial. In some cases it's necessary to trigger natural breeding behavior. In other cases it can drastically extend the life of the animal. I will say, however, it does add a level of complexity to your husbandry practices and routines. Behaviors, appetite and appearance can contrast greatly when a schedule like this is implemented. It becomes critical to understand these variations throughout the different "seasons" to ensure the animal continues to thrive. It can be tricky when a "randy" male discontinues feeding and paces about his enclosure for weeks on end when his normal behavior is to have a hearty appetite and sit contently on his favorite perch.

I also did a little research myself late last year with data that is more recent than Necas book (if it even matters)...

http://trherp.com/graph/Climate and Export Data.htm

Luis
 
Thank you both! I appreciate the helpful information and testimony. Trace, feel free to divulge more of your notes and observations if you find a place to start. :) Luis, that data is perfect for my interest. Impressive work--thank you for conducting it.

Anyone else?
 
This is a topic that I'm really interested in and one I don't want to die off as I think there can be some interesting exchange of ideas. You hit the nail on the nail on the head with me though - I'm not sure where to start or how to present my information maybe because I have a real stumbling block when it comes to writing nor do I think I’m as eloquent or as well written as some of our more acclaimed members.

In your original post, you touched on the fact that there isn't much written about the subject of seasonal cycling. You are fairly new here (although from reading some of your other posts, I think you have some previous chameleon experience and research under your belt) but you'll notice the bulk of the membership thinks that Panthers and Veileds are the be all and end all of chameleons. Successful breeding and hatching baby pics from those two species will always get more hits and replies than one from someone who bred/hatched something even a little different. I guess it's the nature of the hobby; the same tenets apply to other commonly kept reptiles like Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos and Cresties and Beardies. While I think that standardized care (three misting sessions a day, even annual temps, low humidity, cup feeding, no substrate blah blah blah) does work for the ubiquitous Panthers and Veileds, that tends to get trumpeted (parroted?) more often for whatever reason - it's easy to copy paste the URL’s, it's easy for people new to the hobby to understand, it's easy then for people who've had chameleons for a short time to say to follow those 'rules' or your chameleon will die because it’s worked for them for 6 months. Those ‘rules’, while good, are not necessarily the only truth. That said, different information and ideas about chameleons and their care tend to get buried or discounted or forgotten because of the popularity of these standardized care rules, the prevalence of the two species themselves and dare I say it, the ‘6 month expert’ post whores. Seasonal cycling thoughts and ideas do exist here and on other forums and media; they are just harder to find. Remember too; there hasn’t been a huge amount of progress with keeping uncommon chameleon species in captivity, let alone the successful breeding of them. Sometimes too, new ideas or questions are presented in a different format (private email, private email list) with some of the older, more experienced keepers who are perhaps frustrated by this 'parroting' or want a little more relevant experience than guesses. It's sad that this parity exists within the reptile hobby and I'm not sure if it exists in other hobbies. I’m guilty of it but I digress...

To get this started; here is what I do over the course of a year. I'm lucky that I have marked seasons here in Canada and can use that to my advantage. I'm sure I'd have greater difficulty keeping the montanes and not have the success I've had if I lived in more southerly climates. That said; it is possible to do. I also have a dedicated chameleons only room so I can create a mini eco-system within the space. Is it possible to have seasonal changes when you and your pets share the living room? Probably not.

June - August: One 15 minute misting session after true sun rise and before lights on. 0745-0800hrs. This simulates the morning dew. Humidifier on only at night (12 hours). Daily to every other day feedings.
September - December: One 15 minute misting session after true sun rise and before lights on. 0745-0800hrs. This simulates the morning dew. Add a mist session in afternoon to simulate late day thunder/rain showers. 1645-1700hrs. Increase humidifier length to 18 hours. Every other day feedings. Most keepers notice a natural decrease in appetite in the late fall.
January - May: One 15 minute misting session after true sun rise and before lights on. 0745-0800hrs. This simulates the morning dew. A mist session at midday 1200-1205. A mist session in afternoon to simulate late day thunder/rain showers. 1645-1700hrs. Humidifier on 24/7. Daily feedings. Most keepers notice a natural increase in appetite come spring and this is when my animals breed.
My lights, which are on timers, get adjusted to the seasonal light changes as they occur; so my on/off times change almost monthly. Maybe bi-monthly? I also make slight adjustments to humidifier and mist system times so the changes I said above aren't quite so jarring to my animals.

Stick around the forum long enough and you’ll see different themes during certain times of the year. The ‘my panther isn’t eating as much should I be worried’ threads increase in the fall, particularly after the time change. Same goes for the ‘My Veiled wants to go to bed at 5pm but his lights don’t go off until 8’ scenario. Those animals are telling me that the environment has changed and their needs have changed with it. It’s not because they are sick so why fight what is natural to them. Sometimes we need to listen to what our animals are telling us and not what the rules should be.

I hope I’m not the only one to reply. I’d really like to read about what other people are doing.

Cheers,
T
 
I recently made a thread with a similar theme as this one, I was discussing the pro's and con's of subjecting a chameleon to the actual extreme temperatures a veiled chameleon would experience in Yemen. Through some of the research I have done it says that in Yemen where veiled chameleons are commonly found temperatures reach as high as 110 and drop as low as mid 30's. I live in southern California, and in the area I live temperatures naturally rise to 100 and sometimes on occasional very hot sunny days even closer to 110, but does not go over that. In the winter it drops to about low 40's on the cold winter nights. It seemed reasonable to me that with proper precautions you could successfully keep a veiled chameleon outside here year round.

I too, wondered what the benefits would be of subjecting them to this extreme temperature change, or what would happen negatively to them. I also found myself intrigued about what type of behavior changes I would observe if I were to keep a veiled chameleon in these temperatures that so closely mimics their natural environment.

I got some feedback telling me that it would shorten the life span of the chameleon, some feedback that told me that by keeping the chameleon enclosed I impair it's natural ability to thermoregulate, I even got some feedback telling me that the recorded high temperatures could have been taken in full sun at the hottest part of the day and that the chameleon would have moved to a micro-climate in shrubs and trees keeping itself cool.

The feedback I received had some very good points, but they also are not proven to be fact. They are however, logical assumptions. Would exposing a chameleon to these temperatures simply be beating them down and overall causing more damage then good, or would we observe an overall healthier chameleon?

In the end of my previous thread on this subject, I ended with the conclusion that the only way to find true answers to my questions would be to personally test this, experiment with this, and record the behavior and health changes of the chameleon.

One day I plan to actually try this out and experiment with this.

I too, hope that more people will post if they have experimented with the simulation of seasons. This is a subject that I find myself very interested in.
 
Trace, I'm glad you elaborated. Thank you! And that data is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks for the feeding data, too. I would love to see more of this type of information, from you and any keeper who's willing to plot it out. I know it's tedious, so I greatly appreciate the effort.

I've never owned a chameleon. I babysat a friend's adult male calyptratus for a week or so, and some years ago. Naturally, that was a dream come true but I didn't learn anything from it. I did however spend two years of my nerdy adolescence literally obsessing over these animals. I got the books, exhausted the accessible websites, and when the daily activity of the Chameleon Journals list became boring, I hit its archives. That all started about eight or nine years ago, though. My back burner for the past six has been the Kammers' photo album (and I really need that photo album to go back up! ;))

While the partial segregation you mentioned is unfortunate, I'm thankful for those of you experienced keepers and breeders who stick around and regularly contribute. I've also found another list with relatively little activity but great old guard representation, so to say. Between these two resources, I'm happy with the community so far into my re-entrance.

Thanks again.

I do hope more folks talk about their cycles! How do you guys periodically alter temperature/lighting/humidity/hydration/feeding schedules and values?
 
This is such a cool and interesting thread. I really enjoyed finding it and reading what different people are doing to simulate the seasons. I would love to hear from more of you about what you are doing. I know that some species need these ques for them to enter into the breeding process and would love to learn as much as I can as to what works and what doesn't while trying to jump start the breeding process.
 
Jakedn said:
I recently made a thread with a similar theme as this one, I was discussing the pro's and con's of subjecting a chameleon to the actual extreme temperatures a veiled chameleon would experience in Yemen. Through some of the research I have done it says that in Yemen where veiled chameleons are commonly found temperatures reach as high as 110 and drop as low as mid 30's. I live in southern California, and in the area I live temperatures naturally rise to 100 and sometimes on occasional very hot sunny days even closer to 110, but does not go over that. In the winter it drops to about low 40's on the cold winter nights.
Click to expand...

The problem with Veileds outside in Socal will only arise in the winter. Shorter days, lower max temps and lower angle of sunshine will be the main problems. Even if it gets very cold in Yemen it also heats up consistently every single day while here the average temps may not break 65 for a week straight.

Basically every species of chameleon can handle a near freezing night assuming the sun comes blazing out first thing in the morning and gets the temp up in the 70's for at least 4-5 hours.

I'd say an adult male Veiled could thrive outside in a good cage situated in a perfect microclimate, but see below:

Females and juveniles would not develop properly. I do not know anything about the temps required for bone growth, hormone function etc but metabolism would be nearly impossible for the coldest part of our winter. That means minimal eating for 2 months and serious weight loss. All would be more susceptible to parasites.

Short response: you would need to add heat somehow.
 
I'll be marking this as well as putting in input/questions. Ever since my EcoZone purchase, I've looked to gather information on the climate in Yemen; everything from sunrise/sunset, time it takes for sun to fully rise over horizon as well as set, temperature change as the day begins and ends, rainy seasons, high humid season, dry seasons, hottest months and coldest months of the year, and lunar cycle.

Like trace said, its difficult creating a mini ecosystem when you share the same living room as your chameleon, I do. Being a first time Chameleon owner, I don't want to go too far out of the boundaries of "perfect husbandry" according to many of the experienced and full of knowledge owners here, but I am looking for suggestions as how I can recreate their natural climate but with limitations set by all the "safe husbandry" suggestions, such as 85 degrees basking temp, dry nights, 50% humidity, etc.
 
This is the information I've gathered from Yemen, and a more popular coastal city in the country, Aden.

Code: 
Yemen Climate


     SUNRISE/SUNSET:
Jan - 6:26am/5:53pm
Feb - 6:23am/6:06pm
Mar - 6:08am/6:10pm
Apr - 5:48am/6:13pm
May - 5:35am/6:18pm
Jun - 5:34am/6:27pm
Jul - 5:42am/6:30pm
Aug - 5:48am/6:21pm
Sep - 5:49am/6:01pm
Oct - 5:50am/5:41pm
Nov - 5:58am/5:31pm
Dec - 6:14am/5:36pm

AVERAGE HIGH TEMPERATURE:
Jan - 82*
Feb - 82*
Mar - 86*
Apr - 90*
May - 93*
Jun - 99*
Jul - 97*
Aug - 97*
Sep - 97*
Oct - 91*
Nov - 86*
Dec - 82*

AVERAGE LOW TEMPERATURE:
Jan - 72*
Feb - 73*
Mar - 75*
Apr - 77*
May - 81*
Jun - 84*
Jul - 82*
Aug - 82*
Sep - 82*
Oct - 75*
Nov - 73*
Dec - 73*

HOTTEST TIME OF THE DAY:
4PM

COLDEST TIME OF THE DAY:
1AM

AVERAGE RELATIVE HUMIDTY:
Jan - 63%
Feb - 65%
Mar - 66%
Apr - 66%
May - 66%
Jun - 51%
Jul - 49%
Aug - 50%
Sep - 56%
Oct - 58%
Nov - 61%
Dec - 62%

DRIEST MONTH(s):
April
June

WETTEST MONTH(s):
January
September

Now, my current problems trying to simulate seasonal change like above:
  1. Maintain Temperature differences/month with 85 degrees being hottest month of the year
  2. Create realistic time of days when ambient light shines 14 hours a day
  3. having gradual increase and decrease in temperature in a day
 
Is the EcoZone capable of this kind of daily programability across the diffrent pieces of equipment that would be used? I think it would be amazing to be able to take information that you collected and create you own little world. I have read that the EcoZone can simulate seasonal changes, and cloud cover with the lighting system. Can you add a small fan (Computer) to simulate variable wind speed for storms (Cloud Cover, Wind, and Rain from mister)? This sounds like it would be a fun project (probably expensive with all the equipment, EcoZone, Mist System, Fan, Lighting, etc) to simulate a year round daily change. God did it in 7 Days, how long do you think it would take someone to replicate it in captivity...LOL. I am very interested in this, if and when I start my next cham, I would love to be able to do something like this.
 
It is capable of creating such environmental simulations on a monthly basis. Some things, like temperatures varying throughout the day aren't really programmable per hour, but I'm looking into having the basking light on a very long ramp (dimming up and down) to see how the temperature varies throughout the day, so it will gradually heat up over the course of 4 hours, stay hot for a few hours at the hottest time of the day and then the temperature will gradually drop over the next 4 hours.

i.e,...say the hottest times of the day are 2-4pm where the max temp in Yemen is 98 degrees (85 degrees in my case). I want the cage to be 85 degrees from 2pm - 4pm. The maximum ramp time allowed is 240 minutes, 4 hours, so I can have the basking light turn on at 10am increasing from 0% power to 100% power over the course of 4 hours. at 0% the cage is roughly around 73-74 degrees, so in 4 hours it would go from 73 degrees to 85 degrees, stay 85 for a few hours, then drop back down to the low temp of 73 at night by 8pm.
Basking light is just used to create heat, not used to simulate the sun light, thats the UV lights purpose. So the UV light would have its own times for turning on and off to simulate the sun rise and sun set.

There are I/O outputs that yes, you could hook a fan up to. I think its more geared toward temperature control then it is wind speed though, I haven't asked about it because I didnt plan on it. As far as storms, you could also hook a strobe to an I/O output and it would simulate lightning flashes in a rain storm.
 
Jammonlee said:
It is capable of creating such environmental simulations on a monthly basis. Some things, like temperatures varying throughout the day aren't really programmable per hour, but I'm looking into having the basking light on a very long ramp (dimming up and down) to see how the temperature varies throughout the day, so it will gradually heat up over the course of 4 hours, stay hot for a few hours at the hottest time of the day and then the temperature will gradually drop over the next 4 hours.

i.e,...say the hottest times of the day are 2-4pm where the max temp in Yemen is 98 degrees (85 degrees in my case). I want the cage to be 85 degrees from 2pm - 4pm. The maximum ramp time allowed is 240 minutes, 4 hours, so I can have the basking light turn on at 10am increasing from 0% power to 100% power over the course of 4 hours. at 0% the cage is roughly around 73-74 degrees, so in 4 hours it would go from 73 degrees to 85 degrees, stay 85 for a few hours, then drop back down to the low temp of 73 at night by 8pm.
Basking light is just used to create heat, not used to simulate the sun light, thats the UV lights purpose. So the UV light would have its own times for turning on and off to simulate the sun rise and sun set.

There are I/O outputs that yes, you could hook a fan up to. I think its more geared toward temperature control then it is wind speed though, I haven't asked about it because I didnt plan on it. As far as storms, you could also hook a strop to an I/O output and it would simulate lightning flashes in a rain storm.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a great project to start.

You'll have to document your chameleons and how their behavior is with it like that and how their over all health is.

Great discussion!
 
I've had my ecozone set, not to the extent I've listed above, just a more basic cycle, that varies but not much. The dimming on and off of lights, the moonlight that simulates the lunar cycle, the timed mists...it has all made a pretty significant difference in my opinion. Before, my chameleon was random, he seems to be on a sorta of schedule like life now. I could almost tell you his exact moves at certain times of the day when a process begins. 8:30 at night he will walk his way down to his sleeping branch in the middle of the cage as the UV lights dim down, he faces to the right of the cage allowing just a little bit of moonlight to hit him. The sunset only lasts 20 minutes in my current setup. 6pm he takes the high branch on the right of the cage near the misting nozzle for a good shower and drink. I'm rarely home in the mornings when his "sun" rises so I havent been able to notice much with that.
 
The temperatures and humidity levels are an average, mostly taken from the middle of the Month, 15th of each to be exact. Rainfall in Yemen is reportedly very scarce, with only a few months that record over .01mm a month of precipitation, a few months recording none at all and the rest recording less than .01mm.

I want to recreate this environment as close as possible, of course I dont want my cage to be 98 degrees in June/July, and of course I want to mist more then .01mm of water in my cage, so those I will have to find a work around for. My biggest problem is ambient light, here in Texas in August, our days are nearly 14 hours long, in Yemen its around 11 1/2 hours (they dont have DST, days get as short as 10 or so hours). So how can I go about creating 12 hour days, and reducing them to 10 or so hours if the ambient light hitting the cage will be happening for 14 hours?

Today I will work on my settings for the temperature variations. I need to find a good time to start the ramp up process of the basking light so the temperature of the basking spot raises over the course of 4 hours.
I will also try to find a way to mimic different temperatures according to seasons in Yemen. Any ideas on how I should go about doing this? Make the hottest month in yemen 85 degrees in my cage and make the coldest month 80 degrees? All the months in between drop down a degree?

Jan - 82* ---> 80*
Feb - 82* ---> 80*
Mar - 86* ---> 81*
Apr - 90* ---> 82*
May - 93* ---> 83*
Jun - 99* ---> 85*
Jul - 97* ---> 84*
Aug - 97* ---> 84*
Sep - 97* ---> 84*
Oct - 91* ---> 82*
Nov - 86* ---> 81*
Dec - 82* ---> 80*

What is everyone's suggestion for safe low temperatures in the basking spot?

I have the capability of dimming up/down my UVB light (mimics sun, sunrise, sunset). Anybody think a longer ramp time for the UVB is good? I was thinking that 20 minutes is pretty quick for a "day" to begin and end and maybe I should extend it a little longer, 45 minutes maybe?

These are my current settings, with a 20 minute ramp up time for the sunrise. These times allow the chameleon to be in darkness when there is no ambient light according to the length of day here in texas:
OnTOD (when the UV light begins to ramp up in power):
Jan - 605am
Feb - 610am
Mar - 615am
Apr - 650am
May - 655am
Jun - 700am
Jul - 655am
Aug - 650am
Sep - 615am
Oct - 610am
Nov - 605am
Dec - 600am

OffTOD(when the UV light begins to ramp down in power):
Jan - 745pm
Feb - 750pm
Mar - 755pm
Apr - 830pm
May - 835pm
Jun - 840pm
Jul - 835pm
Aug - 830pm
Sep - 755pm
Oct - 750pm
Nov - 745pm
Dec - 740pm

These are the times of sunrise and sunsets in Yemen that I want to recreate taking into consideration my times above so I have no ambient light shining into the cage from a) the outside sun, or b) lights in the house.
 
That is a good point about your local Sun Times. Unless you can control the light coming into the room the Cham is in, You may have to do a hybrid? Match your sun rise and sun set to your local times, and then Temp to Yemen statistics that you have. Either way, your set up will have more variation than the typical Vanilla Cookie Cutter setups.

Do you change the times your mister goes off as well?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

PetNcs
OVERHEATING OF THE YEMEN CHAMELEON
Replies
5
Views
630
kinyonga
K
PetNcs
THE PURPOSE OF HYDRATION
Replies
0
Views
594
PetNcs
PetNcs
Libri
Nort is Home! Is His Set-Up Good Enough?
Replies
4
Views
380
Libri
Libri
danfont
I just can't decide... Please help me choose my first Chameleon!
Replies
10
Views
1K
snitz427
snitz427
lucimirka
New enclosure
Replies
13
Views
970
GrannyK
GrannyK
Back
Top Bottom