sleeping question

[Julirs]

Cats eat lizards-that whole on the back thing makes me real uncomfortable. I often hope that people do not read about my easily handled cham and think they can tame every cham. They are antisocial creatures in general. Mine is the werid one.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I like to use the term: "zoo level"
I absolutely agree with Heika. This is the reason I believe (for the most part) these animals should not be readily available in the pet trade.
They are not really pets.
The reason to keep them is fascination and the rewards of learning to provide them with a captive environment in which they can thrive, and maintaining that husbandry.
This and carefully planned and considered breeding projects are the avocation we call chameleon keeping.
Handling is required when an animal needs to be inspected, moved into it's outside enclosure, taken to the vet etc. They do learn what's going to happen when they're about to be handled and some may react differently...even giving the impression that they want to be held. I think we can tend to project human characteristics onto these animals that aren't really there. This is my opinion...and honestly I have never had a discussion about it with a chameleon, so I default to what we have been
able to learn and the success I have experienced keeping them this way.
People who ask me, "What is the point of having an animal you can't hold or play with?" are in my opinion, people who are not good candidates for chameleon keeping.

-Brad

 

[DraftDayz]

You guys kill me sometimes.

Some people dont share the antiseptic view on Chameleon keeping as some of you do. Apparently, this gentleman is one of those. It's one thing to tell the guy that you believe what he is doing is unsafe for the animal (which is fine to do, infact its the right thing to do), its another to tell him to get rid of it because you think he has no business caring for one (especially when you dont read his whole post).

Am i advocating his actions? No. In almost all cases youre all great at helping people with problems and questions. But i can't sit idle when i see someone who knows more about a topic belittle another who is a novice. It's not a good teaching habit, and its just not polite in my opinion.

 

[Julirs]

Actually, unfortunately, idiot owners apply to every animal. I am not calling Mr. Lips owner an idiot. We have all had our moments watching someone do something they thought was perfectly fine/safe while we cringed and hoped the worst would not happen. I think we people with genuine care for chameleons have a founded fear due to the fact that these animals have such specific care and so many die in the care of misinformed owners. This causes people to speak out even more against situations such as this one. My Vet was recently telling me about an owner that said he was training his large monitor lizard to get along with his 4 month old baby. That person I would certainly call an idiot.

 

[Kent67]

Can't believe what this thread turned into. Anthropomorphism at it's finest. These are lizards. Lizards with tiny little brains. Lizards that have been evolving to live in certain niches for the last 60-90 million years. They did not evolve to be awake/asleep/awake/asleep...all through the night. They evolved to be highly fearful and cautious of potential predators, not ride around on their backs. They evolved in ways that allow them to experience a temperature drop at night, not sleep on a warm human hand. They are born with these instincts and characteristics and they cannot be "trained" to not experience fear. They may grow conditioned to not react with a visual fear or threat response, but they are still lizards with tiny brains. Some people have to learn that the hard way though.

To the original poster: again, chameleons in the wild (or outside cages) often settle in to a roosting spot well before it gets dark. If you want to allow him to experience the behaviors he would have in the wild, then don't change anything. If you want to treat your chameleon like he is a human child with a bedtime, then turn off the lights as soon as he settles in.

 

[Julirs]

Well said hairfarm67. I think it is safe to say that some chams are as frightned and/or stressed as others but do not show it in the most obvious way.

 

[Shunt1]

They are all so different.

This weekend, I was telling you and others how I have been teaching my young (5 month old) cham how to trust and not fear humans. He is doing fantastic and I am so darn proud of him.

Some people got upset because I was training my cats that he was not food, but a valuable member of our family.

For the cham, he only wanted to crawl upon this nice warm "something" that was sleeping on my lap, and he had no idea what it was. I used that opportunity to teach our cat that this lizard must never be harmed in any way.

Tonight, that cat saved our Chameleon from a potential disaster!

I had his cage outside so that he could get some sun, and decided it was time to clean his cage. He was at the top of his cage, so I removed the lower two plants for cleaning.

I took one plant inside of the house and cleaned it. When I went outside for the other one, my cat was doing the "Timmy is in the well" routine and demanding that I follow it!

He led me to the other plant, and sure enough, my Chameleon was on it and about to run loose into the yard. Not sure how he got onto that plant without me noticing, but thanks to our cat, he is now safely inside of his cage.

THAT IS WHY I TEACH MY DOGS AND CATS!

They all have developed a strong understanding of what is right and wrong. Tonight, my cat recognized that something was very wrong and notified me about it.

No, a Chameleon is not going to become a "buddy", but I can teach him who is safe or a danger. I can teach my cats and dogs that he is a member of the family and must be protected.

Tonight, he is safe BECAUSE of the cat!

 

[Shunt1]

I am not calling Mr. Lips owner an idiot.

Thank you for not calling me an idiot, since Mr. Lips is safe and sound tonight because of my cat training.

I have been teaching diverse critters how to get along with each other, for well over 40 years now. It is amazing how critters will protect each other, once they are part of the family.

Some critters could not be allowed together (a ferret and a python for instance), but each were allowed to roam the house when the other was in their cage. However, EVERY CRITTER learned that humans were their source of food and protection. Even our rattle snake soon learn to trust us.

A wild caught Chameleon would be very difficult to train, since he has had a life-time to learning to be afraid. With almost every critter that is caught in the wild, you will find this same fear of the unknown. Teaching a wild rattle snake, was one of the most challenging critters I ever attempted, but even he learned to trust me.

QUESTION: What is stress?

Stress is caused by the constant fear of the unknown and the possibility that some other animal is trying to eat you. If you are young, everything larger than you is out to eat you, until you learn otherwise.

Who induced the most stress?

1) The care giver that teaches his Chameleon not to be afraid of humans, pets, watering, feeding, cage cleaning, and all of the other domesticated situations?

2) The care giver that isolated his Chameleon and taught him to fear everything unusual?

Can you guess which care giver will get bitten?

Sorry, but after 40 years, this debate rather pissed-me-off. How the heck do you know what your Chameleon gets upset about, if you never listen to him?

Have you ever felt his muscles tense when a bird flies over, and how he relaxes on your hand, once he feels safe again?

DID YOU EVER ASKED HIM?

Sorry, perhaps I made the fatal error of asking Mr. Lips what he feels, instead of blindly reading and obeying what I read on the internet. My error!

How do you listen? Every critter will tell you exactly how they are feeling, if you only pay attention to what they are telling you.

 

[Julirs]

Wow-I was disagreeing with your actions, but hopefully did not send the message that I was launching a full blown attack on anyone. Lizards will tolerate you, they cannot be "trained". Some are more tolerant than others. I feel that you are putting a potentially stressed animal in a potentially stressful situation. Why not just avoid the situation. I have a "freindly" male Veiled, but I know he is not truly "freindly", he is just tolerant. He knows that we are a food source and a transportation source out of his cage. Just because he is tolerant I do not choose to put him into potentially harmful situations. Sorry if I upset you, we simply agree to disagree.

 

[Shunt1]

Sorry if I upset you, we simply agree to disagree.

I was so upset about this subject on Friday, that I had to think about everything you and others had said. It took me a long time to clarify exactly why the comments had upset me so much.

I am not someone new, that has never cared for animals before. Although this specific species of reptile is my first, creating his natural rain forest environment was done with no questions asked.

Did you ever think for a minute that I would spend well over $600 for a darn lizard, just to make it cat food?

Yes, this got me upset, because I have spent a life-time understanding critters and how they can express themselves. I listen to what they are telling me.

It did get me rather upset when people on the internet are telling me "facts" that have no scientific backing to support their concepts of how a Chameleon actually views the world.

Dear friend, this is not a personal comment aimed at you or anyone else on this forum. But yes, I did feel that I was being attacked last Friday, for daring to teach my Chameleon to feel safe in our home.

Why was I being attacked, for teaching Mr. Lips to feel safe?

While teaching my cats to NOT EAT Mr. Lips and to protect him as a member of the family, it was considered WRONG on this forum?

I have always asked a simple question: Did you ASK YOUR CHAMELEON?

 

[richiec]

I'm with Shunt. I think dogs and cats are very trainable. He's teaching his cats to be pack animals and to care about other animals and I've been teaching my dog to talk. I think anything is possible, why not teach a cham too? On the other hand, I read this thread to my dog and he thinks he might be nuts.

 

[Shunt1]

Sorry if I upset you, we simply agree to disagree.

While in New Mexico, we had a horse ranch. I purchased a lovely Saddlebread horse at a rather low cost.

She was mean and every cowboy in the area was absolutly terrified of her. If you ever tried to force her to do something she did not want, you would get bucked.

Sunny and I fell in love with each other. Oh yes, I could never force Sunny to do anything against her will, but just like her, I was also darn stubborn.

If she refused to turn right, we would make three left turns....

Snorting out of admiration for out-smarting her, we BOTH won the argument!

The cowboys that have ridden horses all their lives were absolutly terrified of her. Sunny and I would ride together bare-back....

What was the difference? I LISTENED TO WHAT SHE WAS TELLING ME!

 

[Shunt1]

I read this thread to my dog and he thinks he might be nuts.

Did your dog understand what you were reading him, and if not, WHY NOT?

Critters are amazing, if you simply listen to them.

 

[Chris Anderson]

It did get me rather upset when people on the internet are telling me "facts" that have no scientific backing to support their concepts of how a Chameleon actually views the world.

Actually, anthropomorphizing wild animals and denying their evolutionary history and instincts has no credible scientific backing. Unfortunately, while your intentions are good, you are failing to use logical analysis of behaviors or scientific reasoning.

Dogs and cats have undergone thousands of years of domestication which has significantly weakened many of their natural instincts. These instincts can be suppressed through socialization with humans because they are themselves social species. Their social nature and history of domestication provides the opportunity to suppress some "unfavorable" natural instincts through integration into a family group and established and enforced hierarchies. Stray dogs and cats that have not undergone socialization are more difficult to work with as their "unfavorable" natural instincts have not been suppressed and they are not habituated to humans as part of their social network. Similarly, wolves and wild cat species that do not have the domestication history do not integrate as seamlessly into domesticated life with humans as their natural instincts are more difficult to suppress. Animals like sugar gliders are wild animals but extremely social and reliant on family groups for survival. As a result, while they retain many wild instincts in captivity, they can be excellent pets with the right owners as it is possible to form a bonding connection with them.

Chameleons, on the other hand, are not a social species and do not naturally rely on family groups or other individuals for survival. As a result, their hardwired natural instinct is to avoid animals that don't qualify as food or something to breed with before returning to life on their own. While they can be conditioned and habituated to your presence and as a result, the stress impact of your presence lessened, you are still an unnatural presence that they instinctively want to avoid. They may be conditioned to accept food from your hand and even tolerate handling without enduring as high of levels of stress as a less conditioned species but they are still experiencing stress they wouldn't otherwise know if they were not forced to endure human contact.

Closing eyes, hunkering into a crouched or possibly sleep position and sleeping itself are all known to potentially indicate stress and fear. If your chameleon falls asleep on your finger, it could be high stress levels, a lack of lighting or appropriate wave lengths to stimulate daytime activity, illness or low body temperature. At any rate, awaking them after they have fallen asleep on your finger through movement, etc., is stressful and the cumulative effects of stress should be avoided. Many people think that because their chameleon climb on to them, they like or even don't mind being held. Typically this is an attempt by the animal to reach a more comfortable environment whether it be a higher place (your head) or a means to reach another place they think looks better protected. If your chameleon seems eager to be handled, it is probably a good indication you aren't keeping it well and it is not happy with its environment (which is stressful).

Going back to your cat and chameleon, I agree that this is extremely dangerous and in my opinion, foolish. You might be conditioning your chameleon to the cat's presence much as you have conditioned it to your own but as before, this does not eliminate the stress the chameleon is feeling as a result. Further, your cat is likely being conditioned to something along the lines of the fact that you, as the dominant family member have rights to prey items over them and they are not to take that prey in your presence. Now, they may not take the cham as prey later either but it is a risky bet to make and one I wouldn't say a conscientious keeper with the chameleons interest in mind would make.

By taking chameleons or any other wild animal into our care, we are denying them their natural existence and forcing them into stressful situations. While conditioning such as you are doing minimizes some stress during these stressful situations, you are encouraging the frequency of the stressful circumstances and in the long run, not doing much good, in my opinion.

Do your chameleon a favor - lightly condition it to your presence to minimize its stress during necessary interactions such as health examinations, cage cleaning, occasional handling and hand feeding and then do everything you can to minimize additional sources of stress such as contact with your cats, unneeded and lengthy handling, etc. Your cham will live longer if you do!

Chris

 

[richiec]

Did your dog understand what you were reading him, and if not, WHY NOT?

Critters are amazing, if you simply listen to them.

I'm not sure. We talk but I can't read his mind and you know dogs and lieing.... anyways I did ask him again and he still said "nuts."

 

[John33871]

lol no offense or anything but going off the topic

 

[Shunt1]

Unfortunately, while your intentions are good, you are failing to use logical analysis of behaviors or scientific reasoning.

Chris, your reply was outstanding and must require a detailed reply. It is late tonight, so anything I would say would sound rather stupid.

Rest assured, if you are willing, each item that you mentioned should and must be responded to.

In actuallity, you and I do share many simular views.

I am a naturalist, and study nature and how it actually works.

Some people call themselves "environmentalists", and demand that nature obey thier views.

 

[Shunt1]

I'm not sure. We talk but I can't read his mind and you know dogs and lieing.... anyways I did ask him again and he still said "nuts."

I am going to sleep tonight, with one heck of a grin of my face.

Thanks friend, you made me laugh so hard....


QUESTION: What did the American General at Bastone say to the Germans when they were asked to surrender?