Some questions on Carpet chameleon husbandry

[king.louis]

Hi, I recently purchased 1 male and 2 female WC Carpet chameleons (unfortunately, there are very few Carpet breeders here in Canada + I wanted completely unrelated genetics to start a breeding project with). I've thoroughly studied Frank Payne's care guide as well as the Chameleon Academy podcasts/interviews which were all very helpful but I had just a few remaining questions that I was hoping I could get answered here.

1. One of the females seems to be already gravid as she is showing some dark/black coloration. Could someone confirm? (pic attached)
2. How long should I let them settle into their new environments before attempting to breed them? All three are eating and drinking regularly.
3. I've read that sperm retention is common. Does this mean that even after being bred with a new male, a female with retain the sperm of a previous male and use that to fertilize eggs?
   1. ie. in a single clutch, is it possible for there to be 2/multiple fathers?
   2. If I have Chameleons A(f), B(m), C(f), and D(m). If first A breeds with B and C breeds with D and then later, A breeds with D and C breeds with B. Can I breed offspring from the A-D clutch with offspring from the C-B clutch without the risk of inbreeding? (Since A was previously bred with B so she may have retained the sperm from B and some offspring in the A-D clutch may actually have B as the father?)
4. How often should a male be bred?
5. I've read that for other chameleon species, eggs should be incubated in the dark/in an opaque incubator. Is this true for Carpets as well?
   1. If so, does frequently opening the incubator to check on the eggs negatively affect them? How often should they be checked on?
6. I'm following Frank Payne's recommendations to use a 6% Arcadia for adults; what % would be best for juveniles? 2.4%?
7. What size cage should hatchlings/juveniles be kept in? For how long?

Many thanks,
Louis

 

[elizaann2]

@Beman @MissSkittles - do either of you know of anyone who could assist? I don't know anything about carpets or WC chameleons

 

[kinyonga]

You might be interested in reading this if you haven’t seen it already…
”Detecting cryptic speciation in the widespread and morphologically conservative carpet chameleon (Furcifer lateralis) of Madagascar”…
“This study of the widespread carpet chameleon (F. lateralis sensu lato) finds support for three clades within the complex, which correspond with geography and have diverged in both morphological and ecological space”…
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2012.02528.x

These might help a bit although they are older…
https://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/flateralis.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/06MayStanford.html

I‘ll be back in a bit with more.

 

[kinyonga]

I can’t guarantee the accuracy of sites I post from…so be aware of that.
One more..
http://www.geocities.ws/lovebug952001/Furcifer_lateralis.html

Regarding retained sperm…from what I know…the female has to produce clutches until you get a clutch that has infertile eggs to ensure that she is out of sperm from the male she mated with, before it’s “safe” to assume the next clutch will be fertilized with her new mate‘s sperm.
Also, from what I know…the first clutch after mating can sometimes contain infertile eggs and fertile eggs depending on when the female is mated during her “cycle….so that’s not an indication that the female is out of sperm but rather that the infertile eggs were past the point of where they could be fertilized. As I said…this is from what I know….and it might not apply to all species.

 

[MissSkittles]

@Beman @MissSkittles - do either of you know of anyone who could assist? I don't know anything about carpets or WC chameleons

I’m afraid I know nothing about carpet chams or breeding.

 

[Sonny13]

I belief @javadi has some experience with Carpets.

 

[Sherbertsmysunshine]

I'm pretty sure @MikeyBen has a Carpet cham.

 

[javadi]

Hi, I recently purchased 1 male and 2 female WC Carpet chameleons (unfortunately, there are very few Carpet breeders here in Canada + I wanted completely unrelated genetics to start a breeding project with). I've thoroughly studied Frank Payne's care guide as well as the Chameleon Academy podcasts/interviews which were all very helpful but I had just a few remaining questions that I was hoping I could get answered here.

1. One of the females seems to be already gravid as she is showing some dark/black coloration. Could someone confirm? (pic attached)

Yes, that is gravid coloration. They will sometimes show this for a long time without actually having eggs develop however, especially this time of year. "non-receptive" coloration is a more accurate description, and this could be due to being gravid already or being stressed from the dry season and not being ready to reproduce again yet. So don't be surprised if she either does develop eggs, or if later on she loses this coloration and becomes receptive to breeding. Either is possible with wc adults.

1. How long should I let them settle into their new environments before attempting to breed them? All three are eating and drinking regularly.

I'd wait at least a week or two. Since they were exported at the tail end of the dry season, they will probably need some time to be convinced that now is a good time to breed (basically, giving them the signals that it is no longer the dry season).

1. I've read that sperm retention is common. Does this mean that even after being bred with a new male, a female with retain the sperm of a previous male and use that to fertilize eggs?

Yes, it is possible but not guaranteed. We do not currently have the ability to test this rigorously though, as there are effectively no ways to investigate genetic lineage molecularly for lateralis at this time.

1. 1. ie. in a single clutch, is it possible for there to be 2/multiple fathers?

Based on studies in bradypodion (live bearing south african chameleon), yes, it is possible for one clutch to be sired by multiple males. It is unknown whether this applies to lateralis or not though.

1. 1. If I have Chameleons A(f), B(m), C(f), and D(m). If first A breeds with B and C breeds with D and then later, A breeds with D and C breeds with B. Can I breed offspring from the A-D clutch with offspring from the C-B clutch without the risk of inbreeding? (Since A was previously bred with B so she may have retained the sperm from B and some offspring in the A-D clutch may actually have B as the father?)

No, you can't guarantee that there will not be inbreeding with this breeding scheme. However, it will probably be best to just breed the same pairs as much as possible anyway to get eggs/offspring from them before the adults die (which often comes quickly for wc adults). This is a problem for later and at the early stage of establishing a species, probably don't need to worry much about this.

• How often should a male be bred?

Does not matter, the female will be the limiting factor and this will keep the male from "over breeding", if such a thing even really exists for male lateralis.

• I've read that for other chameleon species, eggs should be incubated in the dark/in an opaque incubator. Is this true for Carpets as well?

Doesn't matter. I prefer in the dark but not essential

• 1. If so, does frequently opening the incubator to check on the eggs negatively affect them? How often should they be checked on?

Maybe once a week. It might effect them if the temperatures change too much too fast, as can happen by disturbing the incubation container. Plus increases risk of damaging the eggs just by chance. No controlled studies really demonstrate that it's bad to check on them though.

• I'm following Frank Payne's recommendations to use a 6% Arcadia for adults; what % would be best for juveniles? 2.4%?

Check out a paper I published (Nash and Anderson 2021, FURCIFER LATERALIS, IMPACT OF UV LIGHT ON GROWTH). Basically UVI above 3 slowed growth. 3 and under is best. UVI is more important than the % bulb. % bulb tells you very little since the setup can be so variable.

• What size cage should hatchlings/juveniles be kept in? For how long?

Lots of ideas on this. Check out the chameleon academy podcast episode on bioactive baby raising for some ideas. Or the paper I reference above gives some info abut one way to do it. Can go right to an adult size enclosure or you can do things differently. It's about the environment, not so much specific cage size

Many thanks,
Louis

Answers above

 

[king.louis]

Yes, that is gravid coloration. They will sometimes show this for a long time without actually having eggs develop however, especially this time of year. "non-receptive" coloration is a more accurate description, and this could be due to being gravid already or being stressed from the dry season and not being ready to reproduce again yet. So don't be surprised if she either does develop eggs, or if later on she loses this coloration and becomes receptive to breeding. Either is possible with wc adults.

I'd wait at least a week or two. Since they were exported at the tail end of the dry season, they will probably need some time to be convinced that now is a good time to breed (basically, giving them the signals that it is no longer the dry season).

Yes, it is possible but not guaranteed. We do not currently have the ability to test this rigorously though, as there are effectively no ways to investigate genetic lineage molecularly for lateralis at this time.

Based on studies in bradypodion (live bearing south african chameleon), yes, it is possible for one clutch to be sired by multiple males. It is unknown whether this applies to lateralis or not though.

No, you can't guarantee that there will not be inbreeding with this breeding scheme. However, it will probably be best to just breed the same pairs as much as possible anyway to get eggs/offspring from them before the adults die (which often comes quickly for wc adults). This is a problem for later and at the early stage of establishing a species, probably don't need to worry much about this.

Does not matter, the female will be the limiting factor and this will keep the male from "over breeding", if such a thing even really exists for male lateralis.

Doesn't matter. I prefer in the dark but not essential

Maybe once a week. It might effect them if the temperatures change too much too fast, as can happen by disturbing the incubation container. Plus increases risk of damaging the eggs just by chance. No controlled studies really demonstrate that it's bad to check on them though.

Check out a paper I published (Nash and Anderson 2021, FURCIFER LATERALIS, IMPACT OF UV LIGHT ON GROWTH). Basically UVI above 3 slowed growth. 3 and under is best. UVI is more important than the % bulb. % bulb tells you very little since the setup can be so variable.

Lots of ideas on this. Check out the chameleon academy podcast episode on bioactive baby raising for some ideas. Or the paper I reference above gives some info abut one way to do it. Can go right to an adult size enclosure or you can do things differently. It's about the environment, not so much specific cage size




Answers above

Thank you so much for the detailed responses, I really appreciate it, especially the info about my female showing non-receptive colors. I'll definitely check out the paper you published. Thank you again!

 

[king.louis]

You might be interested in reading this if you haven’t seen it already…
”Detecting cryptic speciation in the widespread and morphologically conservative carpet chameleon (Furcifer lateralis) of Madagascar”…
“This study of the widespread carpet chameleon (F. lateralis sensu lato) finds support for three clades within the complex, which correspond with geography and have diverged in both morphological and ecological space”…
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2012.02528.x

These might help a bit although they are older…
https://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/flateralis.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/06MayStanford.html

I‘ll be back in a bit with more.

I can’t guarantee the accuracy of sites I post from…so be aware of that.
One more..
http://www.geocities.ws/lovebug952001/Furcifer_lateralis.html

Regarding retained sperm…from what I know…the female has to produce clutches until you get a clutch that has infertile eggs to ensure that she is out of sperm from the male she mated with, before it’s “safe” to assume the next clutch will be fertilized with her new mate‘s sperm.
Also, from what I know…the first clutch after mating can sometimes contain infertile eggs and fertile eggs depending on when the female is mated during her “cycle….so that’s not an indication that the female is out of sperm but rather that the infertile eggs were past the point of where they could be fertilized. As I said…this is from what I know….and it might not apply to all species.

Thank you for these resources! I'll definitely do some more reading

 

[MikeyBen]

I'm pretty sure @MikeyBen has a Carpet cham.

Thanks for the mention. I only started keeping a pair since August and find myself still learning with kn hand experience.

 

[PetNcs]

No, you can't guarantee that there will not be inbreeding with this breeding scheme. However, it will probably be best to just breed the same pairs as much as possible anyway to get eggs/offspring from them before the adults die (which often comes quickly for wc adults). This is a problem for later and at the early stage of establishing a species, probably don't need to worry much about

Ansolitely agree. The fatherhood would be a mess as the female A would after mating with D anyway produce first eggs from B, then mixed and then only from D. You would never know which is which, as there is no way testing it. So keep the same pairs is better. You will anyway have a mess as you got the females already gravid and you do not know from which make and the probability that it was the one yiu have chosen is close to zero…

 

[PetNcs]

Check out a paper I published (Nash and Anderson 2021, FURCIFER LATERALIS, IMPACT OF UV LIGHT ON GROWTH). Basically UVI above 3 slowed growth. 3 and under is best. UVI is more important than the % bulb. % bulb tells you very little since the setup can be so variable.

This is very interesting and fir me quite strange.
It must be somehow bias of the methodology and lights used I guess or maybe a small sample?
Though the babies of F lateralis live less exposed to sun than the adults, which is one of the few species getting extremely high doses of UV in the wild, as they run around unhidden all the day and are exposed to UVI exceeding 10, sometimes even 17 based on my measurements.
The total dosis that even the babies though not or limitedly basking is probably much higher that what your experiment was showing… were you a le to get an insight to the dosis and not only UVI exposure?
Or, inhibiting the fast griwth may be actually neneficial for the growth of the babies “to jave enough time” to build all nexessary steuctures oroperly and not speed up unnecessarily? Could this on contrary to the “disadvantage” of slow growth be a sort of protection against mutageneous and carcinogeneous impact of the UV light for the young chameleons?
It is very interesting to hear your comment in this.

 

[javadi]

This is very interesting and fir me quite strange.
It must be somehow bias of the methodology and lights used I guess or maybe a small sample?
Though the babies of F lateralis live less exposed to sun than the adults, which is one of the few species getting extremely high doses of UV in the wild, as they run around unhidden all the day and are exposed to UVI exceeding 10, sometimes even 17 based on my measurements.
The total dosis that even the babies though not or limitedly basking is probably much higher that what your experiment was showing… were you a le to get an insight to the dosis and not only UVI exposure?
Or, inhibiting the fast griwth may be actually neneficial for the growth of the babies “to jave enough time” to build all nexessary steuctures oroperly and not speed up unnecessarily? Could this on contrary to the “disadvantage” of slow growth be a sort of protection against mutageneous and carcinogeneous impact of the UV light for the young chameleons?
It is very interesting to hear your comment in this.

Definitely, very worth discussing and happy to do so, will respond more thoroughly a bit later

 

[javadi]

Definitely, very worth discussing and happy to do so, will respond more thoroughly a bit later

This is very interesting and fir me quite strange.
It must be somehow bias of the methodology and lights used I guess or maybe a small sample?
Though the babies of F lateralis live less exposed to sun than the adults, which is one of the few species getting extremely high doses of UV in the wild, as they run around unhidden all the day and are exposed to UVI exceeding 10, sometimes even 17 based on my measurements.
The total dosis that even the babies though not or limitedly basking is probably much higher that what your experiment was showing… were you a le to get an insight to the dosis and not only UVI exposure?
Or, inhibiting the fast griwth may be actually neneficial for the growth of the babies “to jave enough time” to build all nexessary steuctures oroperly and not speed up unnecessarily? Could this on contrary to the “disadvantage” of slow growth be a sort of protection against mutageneous and carcinogeneous impact of the UV light for the young chameleons?
It is very interesting to hear your comment in this.

Sorry for the delay, here are some thoughts about this .

I think the results are valid and not simply due to a low sample size (especially as the initial power analysis determined that n=6 per group is statistically sufficient to detect the difference I'd expect), but every experiment of course has limitations so I am careful to discuss this all in the context of captive keeping in the discussion of the article. Thought experiments about why the results are what they are are stimulating and interesting, but at the end of the day this was simply looking at what the results were on growth with easily reproducible (and commonly used) captive conditions. So regardless of the reasons for the results, I'd say the conclusions are the same-UVI 7 in captive conditions does not impart a growth benefit on F. lateralis in early development. As far as reasons though...

We did not venture into concluding what happens in the wild, simply what happens when people use commonly available setups with commonly available equipment. So the results here are not necessarily reflective of what happens in the wild and are more a warning that when raising neonates in captivity, folks should probably err on the side of lower UV vs. higher (within reason). Jon Hill at Ipardalis repeated my study in F. pardalis (although not peer-reviewed, I still value it highly) and didn't find a difference in panther growth rates in UVI 3 vs. 6, although a couple of big outliers in the UVI 6 group moved the results a bit (but not statistically significantly), and the groups were from different animal pairings so are not as directly comparable. So this is another piece of data supporting that in captivity, higher UVI does not seem to promote faster growth in a similar species.
https://ipardalis.com/blog/2021/08/04/baby-panther-chameleon-growth-rate/

One important consideration is that the relationship between UVI and heat with these lights is not the same as in the wild of course, as you know very well. So it's possible that the lateralis in the UVI 7 group met their UV needs more quickly, so hid more of the time and thus were not exposed to as high of temperatures had they been closer to the lights seeking UVB (where it is warmer due to inefficient bulbs but not directly proportional to the light intensity). Thus, they could presumably grow slower due to basically avoiding the higher UV areas. The study did not look into behavior of the lateralis babies, nor the amount of food consumed by the two groups. So, the "dose" of UV was indeed not measured. The answer could be in these parameters. Plus, compared to the wild, the UV was on constantly at the same UVI level all day. Perhaps this limits their ability to deal with UV vs. in the wild where they have more options and the UV exposure is much more variable depending on the time of day (or weather conditions, etc.). I'd be interested to see if the results were the same if the UV started off lower, then peaked midday, then dropped off again. This could also be an explanation-impaired regulation due to inherently unnatural lighting conditions. Personally, out of what I list here, I favor this explanation. I suspect that either the lateralis sort of "learn" that the UV is at peak levels constantly and adapt accordingly in conditions not reflective of the wild, or the fact the UV is at its max all the time in captivity (no natural and cyclical variation like in the wild) is inherently unnatural and thus, they don't perform as expected. Someday I'd like lighting systems that vary the UVI levels this way, to reflect natural lighting conditions better.

I am also in the position of responding to claims about lateralis behavior that I don't know the methodology or scope of. So, it is hard for me to respond directly to this and fit the UVI study within the context of your observations. I will try though, were these observations published? If so, I would love to take a look. If not, then I wonder if perhaps lateralis get high amounts of UV in the day some days, but then don't get high "doses" later on? Or perhaps the ones that get higher UV levels mate faster in the wild but die faster too, or perhaps lateralis behave differently in different regions, and the ones I used were derived from a distinct population not as tolerant of UV exposure. I'm not sure that there's precedent for that, but it seems feasible. These are just a couple of questions, I won't speculate much further on that since I don't have all the info. We know that for some other calumma species, they seem to seek out very low amounts of UVI (<1) as their average, even if they are exposed to transiently high levels. Obviously calumma generally have very different habits than most furcifer, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that even if baby lateralis are exposed to high UV levels in the wild, they might have some other way to compensate behaviorally that is missing in captivity.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30474137/

The idea about them "having enough time" is a very interesting one to me. I am not in the position to determine this one way or another though, as all the babies survived to at least adulthood (in other keepers' hands). It's possible that later down the line, we might see differences in longevity between groups though. Frankly I think this would be an excellent study, it would just take a lot of time and resources. I do a lot of work focused on how early life (in utero, until around weaning) exposures to things like bad diet or toxins can impact mammalian longevity and physiology, so I'm inclined to think there is likely some difference between groups with different UV levels at these critical early developmental windows. Someday I would like to get more conclusive answers though