Substrate

[knighty]

hi i was just wondering why so many people have an issue with substrates being used...

i have repti bark in mine and there is a natural substrate in the wild. i know chams are higher up in the wild but my cham does not go to ground to feed as i feed hoppers that climb before he has chance to go to ground, and the wax worms i hand feed...

in my opinion using paper towels as a substrate is making the viv unnatural, all the people i know that keep chams feel the same as me, it has only realy been on here i have seen people saying not to....

has anyone ever lost a cham through substrate....

 

[AFH]

You don't say how old your cham is, but in general any kind of substrate that can't be digested is bad. Paper towels are used just to help clean up the poo.

I'm assuming your cham is pretty young if he's only eating hoppers and waxworms. When he gets older, he's going to be eating larger prey and at some point, one or more of those prey items is going to fall to the bottom of the cage. Your cham will go down there to eat it, and possibly suck up a piece of bark or whatever substrate you're using. He can't digest it, he's going get impacted, and you're either going to have a big vet bill or a dead cham.

Is that really worth it because you want your viv to look more natural?

And yes, people have lost chams due to ingesting substrate.

 

[CammieNLeno]

has anyone ever lost a cham through substrate....

I can think of 2 in the last 6 months here on the forums that have lost their cham due to impaction of substrate.

One thing I must point out in regards to your comment about making it un-natural, and that they have "substrates" in the wild.. is that in the wild, these chameleons dont last 4-8 years like many expierenced keepers here on the forums are able to reach. Our husbandry techniques have been perfected by many before us, and a no-substrate approach has proven to aid in longevity.

Why even risk it when there is literally no point other than looks?

 

[meatslim]

Most things in this hobby like any other herp hobby is hearsay. Very few things are scientifically proven and we listen to what other hobbyists say as fact. These things however are a compilation of the experiences of hobbyists mixed with some post-rationalizatioantn. It is up to you how you w to raise your animal. Do you take the word of others or do you find your own way?

I'm not saying that what goes around on these forums is just meer chit-chat but it is certainly not fact. Take what people say for whatever it is worth to you.

I myself would not use large chunks of bark as a substrate because it would not make me comfortable. I would be comfortable however with a fine soil substrate. I don't think that has much risk of impacting a healthy chameleon with a healthy digestive system.

I understand the value of a naturalistic setup. Some say chameleons being captive bred have no appreciation for a natural environment but I would say... humans as a species are as captive bred as it gets and I as a human enjoy nature once in a while too. Imagine if all the plants in the world were silk and parks were huge patches of paper towel.

 

[Julirs]

Mr. Meat, although I understand the point of your post above, I belive that you underestimate the experience and true scientific knowledge of a great many of the members here. You say, "I'm not saying that what goes around on these forums is just meer chit-chat but it is certainly not fact." Much of what is said here is absolutley fact and that is a bold statement to make. Many of these people are Veterinarians, have Masters degrees in Biology, and have studied in the fields.
As for fine soil, in the average keepers cage that would amount to muddy "bacterial hoarding soup".

 

[meatslim]

Yes, perhaps that was too general a statement. I was just making a point that a lot of the "rules of husbandry" are not hard fast rules but just what is normal and what the hobby generally agrees works well. That certainly does not mean that it is not the only way to do things and there are certainly ways to stray from the norm if done with enough thought.

edit:
as for the soil, I dont use it for chams but in the past, I have hooked up an air pump to a bubble tube and ran it into the soil, it does a good job of keeping the soil fresh. Even when the soil has been wet for a while, u can still dig deep into it and it will still feel and smell fresh. I have not had any problems with doing it that way. thats what I mean by there are certainly ways to stray from teh norm if done with enough thought.

Maybe it is because I am coming from the dart frog hobby where the culture is a bit different. Froggers seem to be more open to experimentation with husbandry and its less about rules than it is about principles.

Some other examples:
1. With certain snakes, keepers consider it a rules that you provide hides. If you were to post a pic of a snake enclosure without a hide, u better be prepared for a flaming. However, more often than people realize, some respected and successful breeders do not use hides at all but keep their snakes in enclosures with all 6 sides opaque walls. I myself have kept snakes with plenty of foliage for security without hides at all.

2. With frogs, most people will call you absurd if you do not dust your feeders, however a friend of mine and several other froggers are experimenting with substrates and developing a mineral based soil based on his study of soil composition in Panamanian rainforests, which supplies the microfauna with necessary vitamins, minerals and calcium. He is currently raising several frogs this way to adulthood not only without dusting but without feeding whatsoever! They seem to actually reach adult size this way faster than conventional feeding.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Knighty,

Thanks for your question about substrates. It's handy to re-think, re-investigate, review and re-debate these issues once in a while to make sure that we aren't doing something based on information that is no longer valid.

As has been mentioned, water drainage, bacteria build-up, intestinal impaction and even small twigs poking a hole through the stomach are all substrate concerns. Another danger is parasites. In the wild, chameleons don't necessarily stay in the same location as we have them do. In the wild, that means their poop is less likely to re-infect them with the parasites that are shedding from their own gut. Specific types of parasites either directly re-infect through contact or indirectly though feeders ingesting fecal matter. The fewer places we provide parasites an opportunity to live outside of our chameleons the less chance there is for them to cycle though and increase their numbers. Some of these parasites can live for months outside of a chameleon just waiting for the chance to get a ride back inside. PVC floors that can be removed and sanitized with bleach and/or ammonia (caution!) offer a chance to break the parasite's cycle and let anti-parasite drugs and immune systems do their job.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

case in point ( read from link below )

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ADCHAM/message/74


read it................ think about it......... this is exactly what meatslim is talking about, i share the same exact views as he does.

We still know little to nothing about these animals. Animals die suddenly for no apparent reason even with these " chameleon forum PC" methods of husbandry.


Yes there is a lot to be learned from the trial and error of keepers past, but there is also many things we can learn with experimenting as well.

we cant possibly call the methods we are currently using perfect, thats like the keepers from ten yrs ago saying their methods were perfect.

another example, https://www.chameleonforums.com/can-do-panther-chameleons-10934/

on that thread even chris anderson says:

" I've never understood why everyone was so sure they can't swim well, especially considering the known, documented cases of Calumma hillensuisi and C. gastrotaenia doing so"

so according to him, everyone was so sure they couldnt swim ( even with documented cases of some swimming ) and this is after all the Just shows how little we know untill it slaps us in the face.

" everyone was so sure " , well everyone was wrong! it would have done the hobby good for this to surface sooner.

"underestimate the experience and true scientific knowledge of a great many of the members here" how many of these great members knew chams could swim? how many would have argued and raised their noses at someone trying to state panthers can swim before pics as proof was available?

"Our husbandry techniques have been perfected by many before us,"
call me crazy but you cant perfect techniques and not know that chams can swim, because imagine what else we dont know?

A great keeper improves husbandry when possible, but doesnt stop trying because they found a way that just works.......

 

[JoshCrane1]

my previous adult veiled chameleon used to swim quite well, didnt find out till he was in the shower in a plant and dove off into the tub in which there was about 4 inches of water, mr. green just swam like he knew what he was doing, pretty gracefull.round and round the tub till i picked him up and put him back into his cage.

 

[Julirs]

I am not so sure that people said they "can't" swim as were saying "why throw them in a pool of water?" We do know they do not spend time in or under water to any extent. Lots of animals can swim, but you don't see "herds" of rabbits hanging out in the pool! Many lizards can swim-so the fact that chameleons can makes sense enough.

reyesjoshuacruz says... "underestimate the experience and true scientific knowledge of a great many of the members here" how many of these great members knew chams could swim? how many would have argued and raised their noses at someone trying to state panthers can swim before pics as proof was available?

This is only one example. What does this entire swimming example have to do with normal chameleon husbandry or the substrate question? It sounds like you are backing that this is a forum of uneducated people that know nothing of keeping chameleons.

I don't think that anyone thinks that experimenting and improving husbandry is a bad thing at all.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

"I am not so sure that people said they "can't" swim as were saying "why throw them in a pool of water?" We do know they do not spend time in or under water to any extent. Lots of animals can swim, but you don't see "herds" of rabbits hanging out in the pool! Many lizards can swim-so the fact that chameleons can makes sense enough.

This is only one example. What does this entire swimming example have to do with normal chameleon husbandry or the substrate question? It sounds like you are backing that this is a forum of uneducated people that know nothing of keeping chameleons."

the reason i brought the swimming reference up is so i can ask this question,

"how many of these great members knew chams could swim? how many would have argued and raised their noses at someone trying to state panthers can swim before pics as proof was available?"

really if someone would have argued panthers can swim ( and i dont just mean throw it in water watch it survive, as most lizards can do ) but actually choose to enter water and use its body parts to propel and steer itself as shown in the germans posting. there is a diff in what was displayed in that posting as swimming and what you refer to as what any lizard will do.

" It sounds like you are backing that this is a forum of uneducated people that know nothing of keeping chameleons."

let this be said, i've had a little under 20 chams since i joined this forum, they would all prob be dead if it wasnt for this forum and its members. I stood on the shoulders of their research and i use most techniques advs by vets. but this is just one source of input i or any one should consider when looking at husbandry, other sources and my own mind will provide the rest..


for example i could keep feeding chams whats recommended here, or i can try and find out what insects they eat in nature, and whats inside of the insects they eat in nature ect..... im looking forward

 

[Julirs]

Looking forwards is never a bad thing.

 

[meatslim]

I dont think anyone is discrediting anyone from this forum. I certainly am not. I am just saying as always, there is much to gain from experimenting and re-evaluating the norm. To think more about why we do things and not just because people (even if they are educated and experienced) say it works. 10 years from now, people may thing the things we did today are ridiculous.

 

[knighty]

wow thanks for all the interesting responses, how ever it seems to me that it is more the american way to not use substrate than a general rule... i have 2 close friends here in the uk, 1 with 12 chams and 1 with over 50! they have substrate on all there chams and have had no problems....

my cham is 6 months and already eating 3.5 inch locusts! i tip the locusts in over the plants and they dont last long enough to make there way to ground, and to say that when 1 does he will swallow bark and impact is a pretty harsh statement, would have to be a combination of bad luck, bad aim and me not being around to assist in an emergency. as for the paracites i wash and sterilise any plants with feseus or urate on daily, i also remove and replace any bark that has either on, i wipe any of the branches and my viv is no less clean and sterile as yours with paper towels. i have a 5 inch layer of eco earth under the bark and that is more than capable of soaking up the water from the spraying, more so than a paper towel. once the eco earth becomes full, i simply replace it...

i believe that no one is fully educated on an animal that we are constantly learning about, and discovering that what we thought could perhaps be wrong, every one has always said chams are a solitry animal that likes to live alone, then why do they have the ability to change colour and comunicate, surely you can tell me that the colour changing is just for camofluge as the colour spectrum they display is so vast, and i dont think a red panther would stay hidden in a tree for very long. i have seen pairs and trios living in captivity, with substrate, very happily...

 

[david sullivan]

I have not been here too long and I do not know a great deal about cams. But everything I have learned has come from this site and unlike yourself and many others here I have little HERP Experience. But I have a healthy cam and I owe it all to the wonderful people here. The fact that this site is here and the ppl are willing to put there credibility on the line by telling you what to do and what not to do and stand by that really says a lot.

I do realize that no one will ever know everything about something, that is what makes nature and its creatures what it is, Amazing!! So I think you should stick to what you know best (Frogs) and accept the views here as solid fact to date until proven otherwise. The techniques shared here are the best and that can only come from years of experience.

I am a fishery technician and I know a great deal about north Atlantic fish species and I would stand by my knowledge which I have gathered form experience. But fresh water species in the same region (related no doubt)...but completely different are another thing, and I would never voice an opinion on something with out being able to back it up with experience.
All I am trying to say is that my cam is very much alive because of these guys and to tell you the truth if I swallowed a bow from a spruce tree or a large Pinecone I know that I would have a hard time getting over that one and would be in serious trouble without medical intervention.

I think that this topic is common sense.

 

[JoshCrane1]

im a cryogenic engineer, so if you all wanna freeze your chamys for a few years im the guy to talk to.lol. everyone has their profession and expertise somewhere, just some are relevant to chamys and some not.

 

[meatslim]

I am not trying to disprove anything. I was just saying that there isnt only one view. AFH offered his view on substrates and as knighty mentioned, many people in the UK keep their chams with substrate just fine.

"accept the views here as solid fact to date until proven otherwise"
If everyone accepted the views as solid fact then no one would even attempt to prove otherwise.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

seriously if you havent read this, read it.


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ADCHAM/message/74

we are told here in america large screen cages are the route to go, its a good way to do it, but not the only way. that just pertains to caging, imagine other aspects of the hobby that can be done diff, possibly better.

 

[knighty]

we only use screen enclosures to, expecpt for species that need higher huniditys, we then use a mix of wood, screen and vents...

good link, i think we still have a long way to go before we realy know the full extent of chameleons and there husbandary....

 

[david sullivan]

WOW I love the language…must have struck a nerve. My friend you have to be able to control your anger a little bit better that like I’m sure everyone else here has to do at times, not to mention that there are quite possibly a bunch of kids reading this. I did not mean for you to stick with frogs and only frogs, I was not trying to down grade your ability and knowledge about any other reptile or amphibian, or cat, or dog, or sheep, whatever. All I was trying to say is that I would most defiantly take offence to some of the things you have said if they were directed to me and I felt as though I had to say that everything they have told me works!
If you were warned about American sites then why are you here…maybe I am the one that should go, Lord knows I am not worthy to have a conversation with such a powerful, out spoken, genius such as your self. Sorry if I had offended you. That Apology is sincerer.
Now as far as me being an ass licking robot…what do I say to that??? I guess I should not take advice from someone with years of experience in a field that I am new to, that is just wrong, maybe I should have just listened to what they had to say and did what I thought would work. I had bark substrate in with my cam the day I got him and he did ingest some bark and had a hard time with it I am sure that is why I came here to begin with. You go ahead and do your research and make the ultimate environment for your cam, I hope everything works out.
And far as the name calling is concerned well if you want to go that way then that’s find, being a Newfoundlander I have quite the quick tongue and I would not hesitate to tackle you superior linguistics skills.