Suddenly wont shoot tongue all the way out or possible depth perception issue???

lslcronk

New Member
Sorry this is long guys but I know from reading all these months the more info I give the better help I can get...so here is literally EVERYTHING!

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Panther cham, Male, 9 months. I have had him since April.
Handling - Maybe twice a week, on weekends to take him outside if weather permits.
Feeding - Mainly crickets, I am introducing dubia. Tried horns and silks - he would eat the horns, not a silk fan. Gutloading varies with the Super Chow from Tiki Tiki, Repashy Super Insect Gutload, a wet mix I found on here containing turnip greens, collard greens, kale, papya, brewers yeast, sunflower seeds, carrots, apple...I cant remember everything but I got the recipe here. Oranges for water source. He is fed every day - every other day. I have been trying to get him to use a feeder jug - I did see him eating out of it once last week, so I know he uses it and knows where it is. I will usually hand feed until he slows down eating then I leave him with his jug and a couple free roaming for him to hunt.
Supplements -A few weeks ago I switched to the Repashy Calium Plus ICB based on Kammers recommendation. Edit: Supplement change was roughly 8/7/11 - thats when I ordered the Repashy product. Until then I was doing Phos Free Calium daily, Calcium with D3 every other Sat, alternating Sat with Herptivite.
Watering - I have a MistKing, I use an IV bag as a dripper and hand mist every morning. He almost always drinks when hand misting, including this morning, I mist until he stops drinking. I have seen him catch water drops in the past - as recently as a week ago.
Fecal Description - Brown with whitish urate - some days a tinge of yellow/orange. Fairly solid, formed. No parasite testing, was actually going to do one just for fun at work. Does not defecate every day, usually every other to every third day.
History - Nothing has changed other than the supplements and I cant get him outside much due to fall weather in Minnesota. This weekend might be the last chance for awhile. I have not had any other health problems with him.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen, 2x2x4 - 1 indoor, 1 outdoor
Lighting -1 ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 UVB Flourescent, 1 ZooMed Daylight Blue 100watt and 1 Zoo Med Daylight Blue 60 - he is in a basement room so I am using to heat bulbs to keep temp up a bit. He is lights on about 6am, lights off about 6:30p - he is always in his sleeping spot well before lights off, usually around 5pm-ish. ***Side note- I have a night heat light on my dubia -a red ZooMed it is in the same room*** Problem? Does not seem to bother him, always his resting/sleeping colors at night but wanted to mention this.
Temperature - Floor temp is around 68 in the day, basking spot is high 80's to low 90's - measured with a digital temp gun. Lows overnight have been around 65.
Humidity - Humidity is anywhere from 50% - 70% depending on weather and misting, I have the dumb little circle thing to measure it. He is misted with his mister every 2-3 hours, I have a large dracanea cane plant in the cage. He has not had any problems shedding, I will usually increase hand misting when I notice a shed.
Plants - The cane plant, use a pothos outside and an arboricola.
Placement - In a basement room, no fans or vents. Large egress window. Pretty secluded most of the day. The height of the top of the cage is probably about 6ft off the floor. There is a CF bulb in the room that I leave on for extra light (he gets some sun through the window, but on cloudy days it seems dreary in there!)
Location - Crappy Minnesota...if I wasn't worried about not getting him outside in the real sun for 6 months of the year...I am NOW! :(

Current Problem - I fed Claude this morning and he didn't shoot his tongue out far enough to get the cricket I was holding. He tried 3 times in a row (aim would have been dead on) then retracted his tongue and snapped his mouth shut, almost like he thought he had it. Then I moved it almost to his mouth and he got it. At first I thought it was a tongue problem, then I started wondering if he could see it "right". I know he can see, he was watching the cricket tub and when I put lose crickets in his cage for him to hunt he was watching them. So I though a depth perception issue?? I took the morning off work tomorrow to test this some more, but he has never had an issue of any kind let alone problems eating! As I have been thinking, he has not eaten crickets out of his feeding jug in a few days and I am now wondering if it is due to him not being able to get to them with his tongue?? I may be over reacting, and I have an idea maybe it is the supplement as he cant go outside all the time but I would love your opinions, I can switch back to the old schedule very easily.
 
How soon after him waking up did you try and feed him? I know with our Rufus, he needs to warm up for a while before we feed him or his tonuge is the same way. After a little time under the lights, he and his tongue are back to their old selves.
I'm not sure this is normal, but it is my experience.

Good luck
 
Not sure if this is your issue but Herptivite does not have the needed usable Vit A for panther chameleons. It only took my baby 5 weeks of being off the Kammers recommended supplementation and on the "boards" supplementation with herpivite before George started having very similar issues to what you are experiencing. I would recommend you get a Human Vit A supplement liquid gel cap and dose a drop on the back of a (1) cricket once a week till you start seeing improvement.


This is a touchy subject so I am sure that you will get those that disagree with me. The Kammers now use Repashy which I think is a good supplement but there normal regime before the Repashy was w/o Herptivite and a MUCH more aggressive supplementation than is recommended by Chameleonforums.com. From my research more Chams have problems when coming from a aggressive supplementation to a mild supplementation then the other way around.

I think it is typical to see a cham shoot short with the correct aim first then to start seeing the aim off as well, as the Vit A deficiency progresses.
 
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How soon after him waking up did you try and feed him? I know with our Rufus, he needs to warm up for a while before we feed him or his tonuge is the same way. After a little time under the lights, he and his tongue are back to their old selves.
I'm not sure this is normal, but it is my experience.

Good luck

I did think about that as well, Claude is a slow mover in the am - he is not a morning cham! I have just never had this happen and we have been on the same schedule since I got him...lol this is why I immediately asked for tomorrow morning off when I got to work today! Try to let him wake up, I think I am more panicked as I noticed his food jug is not changing. Thanks for your reply, I feel a little better that someone else has had this happen! I immediately think the worse! It is so hard when you have to work all day! :(
 
Not sure if this is your issue but Herptivite does not have the need usable Vit A for panther chameleons. It only took my baby 5 weeks of being off the Kammers recommended supplementation and on the "boards" supplementation with herpivite before George started having very similar issues to what you are experiencing. I would recommend you get a Human Vit A supplement liquid gel cap and dose a drop on the back of a (1) cricket once a week till you start seeing improvement. He has been on the Repashy ICB now for about 5 weeks, so no Herptivite in that time frame, so do you think he is having a hard time adjusting to the Vit. A?


This is a touchy subject so I am sure that you will get those that disagree with me. The Kammers now use Repashy which I think is a good supplement but there normal regime before the Repashy was w/o Herptivite and a MUCH more aggressive supplementation than is recommended by Chameleonforums.com. From my research more Chams have problems when coming from a aggressive supplementation to a mild supplementation then the other way around.

I think it is typical to see a cham shoot short with the correct aim first then to start seeing the aim off as well, as the Vit A deficiency progresses.
Does the Repashy ICB have useable Vit A in it?
 
According to this article the tongue's shooting out should only be decreased by 10 to 19% with cooler temperatures and that the tongues do not become shorter then...
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...ns-tongues-still-snappy-in-cool-temperatures/

Thanks for the article kinyonga! So since temp should not be affecting him much if at all, do you think I should be adding vit. A to his diet? He gets it in his gutload and the dusting supplement now that I switched to the Repashy ICB. I dont want to over do it. Could this be an issue with Vit. D3? I am no longer giving him a separate D3 supplement either. I was really glad to see you comment! Thanks again for your time!
 
To be honest I'm not sure about all the different lights you use. I do think 68 is cold for the bottom of the cage for the daytime and for a panther I keep the basking spot at 85 to 86. As for the tongue problem, it could be his eyes or his tongue. I would get him on some vitamin A. I use Reptivite without d3 a couple of times a month and I know Repashy has a new vit. A product out. Hopefully some A on a regular basis (twice a month) will help his eyes or tongue to improve.
 
To be honest I'm not sure about all the different lights you use. I do think 68 is cold for the bottom of the cage for the daytime and for a panther I keep the basking spot at 85 to 86. As for the tongue problem, it could be his eyes or his tongue. I would get him on some vitamin A. I use Reptivite without d3 a couple of times a month and I know Repashy has a new vit. A product out. Hopefully some A on a regular basis (twice a month) will help his eyes or tongue to improve.

Thanks Jann!! I guess this is where I am confused. I just started him on the Repashy that has Vit. A in it about 5 weeks ago and NOW he is having issues. I had him on Herptivite (which I guess has no useable Vit A and he was fine) So would it be best to do the Vit A caps and put on a cricket 2x a month? Or just get the Reptivie and use that with the Repashy ICB?:confused:

He just has 1 extra 40watt heat lamp on top of his cage, more to brighten it up. I will work on my temps!
The CF is just the bulb in the room - the ceiling light. The red night bulb is just on the Dubia bin for heat. Sorry if it was confusing, I was in a tizzy :eek:
 
Thanks Jann!! I guess this is where I am confused. I just started him on the Repashy that has Vit. A in it about 5 weeks ago and NOW he is having issues. I had him on Herptivite (which I guess has no useable Vit A and he was fine) So would it be best to do the Vit A caps and put on a cricket 2x a month? Or just get the Reptivie and use that with the Repashy ICB?:confused:

He just has 1 extra 40watt heat lamp on top of his cage, more to brighten it up. I will work on my temps!
The CF is just the bulb in the room - the ceiling light. The red night bulb is just on the Dubia bin for heat. Sorry if it was confusing, I was in a tizzy :eek:

I wish I knew more about the vit A issues than I do. But my kids all get just a dot of vit A on a feeder every other week. I have found it seem to help arnold, my 7 year old panther. He still has problems such as you describe, with his tongue not extending all the way, but it happens less often than before I started the vit A supplementation. All of that being said, if he had no issues prior to your making changes, the very first thing I would try is going back to what was working. But you need to monitor carefully as you don't want to let the situation get worse either. I don't mean to sound on the fence, but trying the easy fix first is what I would do, then if needed, I would start vit A. Let me know how he is doing.
 
Thanks Jann!! I guess this is where I am confused. I just started him on the Repashy that has Vit. A in it about 5 weeks ago and NOW he is having issues. I had him on Herptivite (which I guess has no useable Vit A and he was fine) So would it be best to do the Vit A caps and put on a cricket 2x a month? Or just get the Reptivie and use that with the Repashy ICB?:confused:

He just has 1 extra 40watt heat lamp on top of his cage, more to brighten it up. I will work on my temps!
The CF is just the bulb in the room - the ceiling light. The red night bulb is just on the Dubia bin for heat. Sorry if it was confusing, I was in a tizzy :eek:

That's were it gets tricky. It is possible that it is coincidence that you changed the supplement and now it is catching up with him that he has been without Vit A for awhile. Once a Vit A deficiency shows up it's getting it back in balance with D3 and No supplement that is meant to maintain a healthy balance will be much help in putting things back into balance. You need to do something extra which is why Jann and myself recommended some further Vit A supplement. In The Panther Chameleon book by Ferguson and others they recommend giving a large one time dose of 4000-8000 IU at the sign of Vit A deficiency. I think that is a lot but it gives you the idea I am talking about getting things back into balance.
 
That's were it gets tricky. It is possible that it is coincidence that you changed the supplement and now it is catching up with him that he has been without Vit A for awhile. Once a Vit A deficiency shows up it's getting it back in balance with D3 and No supplement that is meant to maintain a healthy balance will be much help in putting things back into balance. You need to do something extra which is why Jann and myself recommended some further Vit A supplement. In The Panther Chameleon book by Ferguson and others they recommend giving a large one time dose of 4000-8000 IU at the sign of Vit A deficiency. I think that is a lot but it gives you the idea I am talking about getting things back into balance.

Now I am lost, please help me understand how finally getting the vit a will cause a deficiency, or is it just more an out of balance issue that you feel it brings up for the cham? I am off to read the book and see if I can understand where you are going. I always have more to learn and I do have that book.
 
Now I am lost, please help me understand how finally getting the vit a will cause a deficiency, or is it just more an out of balance issue that you feel it brings up for the cham? I am off to read the book and see if I can understand where you are going. I always have more to learn and I do have that book.

Honestly, I do not know how finally getting the Vit A in the Repashy would cause a problem. I was implying that the imbalance was already there and that it is now showing up in function. btw I was referring to page 78
 
I also use the vit A capsules like twice a month like Clarke, I also wanted to add that dehydration can also affect the tongue, I noticed you said there was some yellow on the urates, I would try adding some long misting sessions in conjunction to the vit A :) good luck!
 
Could be an injury too. I had one of my males injure his tongue and was doing the exact same thing. I hand fed and it lasted about 10 days and now he is back to 100%. I kind of imagine it like jamming your finger on a basket ball that crap hurts lol.

Something to think about ;)
 
Thank you guys so much for your help! I was thinking it was something with supplements so I will do as suggested...I went out tonight and got some Vit A capsules and have decided I need to get the book Clark is referencing!! I will keep you guys posted as to how things are going...I think the reasoning makes sense that he has been under-supplemented with Vit A for awhile so the signs of deficiency are there even though I have recently added Vit A in by using the Repashy ICB...I will see if a little extra will help him out, hopefully that is all it will take!! Keep your fingers crossed! :eek:
 
I think what is being said by others here is that if indeed this is vitamin A related, that deficiency can take a long time to develop to the point that symptoms are seen...... and even though you have switched to Calcium Plus, which has vitamin A. the symptoms you are seeing are resultant from the previous lack of it. The amount of Vitamin A in the Calcium Plus is not enough to cause a quick reversal because it is meant as a daily use product that provides sufficient levels to develop and maintain balance. To reverse deficiency, you would need a more aggressive approach such as my Vitamin A only product "Vitamin A Plus" .....

I want to reiterate that I am NOT diagnosing your chameleon as being Vitamin A deficient. We are a long ways from understanding what too little, and too much, can do, but I do believe that there is a high possibility that this COULD possibly be a factor here.

Allen
 
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We recently took our chams to the vet for general well check & fecals.. FYI, during general conversation he told me that sometimes the (this doesn't really apply to you specifically but moreso just a tidbit of info for those who read this thread) very first sign of MBD is a problem with tongue projection. He said MBD affects the muscles first and not the bones as often thought. I thought that was interesting info and figured I'd pass it along.
 
I think what is being said by others here is that if indeed this is vitamin A related, that deficiency can take a long time to develop to the point that symptoms are seen...... and even though you have switched to Calcium Plus, which has vitamin A. the symptoms you are seeing are resultant from the previous lack of it. The amount of Vitamin A in the Calcium Plus is not enough to cause a quick reversal because it is meant as a daily use product that provides sufficient levels to develop and maintain balance. To reverse deficiency, you would need a more aggressive approach such as my Vitamin A only product "Vitamin A Plus" .....

I want to reiterate that I am NOT diagnosing your chameleon as being Vitamin A deficient. We are a long ways from understanding what too little, and too much, can do, but I do believe that there is a high possibility that this COULD possibly be a factor here.

Allen

Wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!! I totally agree with and understand what the problem might be. He seems to be doing really well. I got his room warmer in general, and I have gotten some vit A capsules to give him a little extra for the time being. I was not having an issue with the Calcium Plus at all! I actually really like it, he seems brighter and seems to like the taste, and it is much easier to work with. I was bummed about possibly having to go back to the old supplements! This seems more balanced!
It makes a lot of sense to me that he was not getting enough vit A for so long, that it took awhile for signs to show. It is so hard to know how much they are getting - even with all the supplements and gutloads! I may have even jumped the gun a bit as he has been catching crickets normally since, but he is my pride and joy...a testament to the "senior member" status not meaning much other than I posted enough.:eek: Thanks again, so much for your time! :)
 
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