SUPERWORMS KILLING CHAMELEONS

[andrew biggin]

They're fine Andrew. Depending on where you get them they will be different sizes. If I'm desperate for some (as I was the other week when none were available at my usual supplier), try Pets at Home. I know it goes against the grain but needs must sometimes. They tend to have smaller morios which will be suitable for a younger cham. Gutload them with fresh stuff as they ignore things like bug burger.

thanks sharpy in fact i did get them from pets at home was just checking on here here before i fed george

 

[SharpShooter]

I did find a wiggling bsfl in the fecal deposit of one of my chams it was damaged and moving slow, nonetheless still moving

I've seen that with BSFL and our adult beardie. She doesn't chew, just swallows anything that moves. I don't give her BSFL after that.

 

[Zevil]

Firstly both superworms and mealworms suffocate easily. They die within a few seconds when in water. I imagine there shouldn't be any air or much air down the digestive system of any reptiles.

 

[Lennoncham]

Firstly both superworms and mealworms suffocate easily. They die within a few seconds when in water. I imagine there shouldn't be any air or much air down the digestive system of any reptiles.

Very true. I had superworms in a dish today and pulled them out of Lennon’s cage like 30 seconds into his misting and they were already half dead.

 

[insectovore]

No, they can't eat their way out of a living reptile. Occasionally, I did see black soldier fly larva in salamander poop, not living but the other "shell" had not been fully digested but the internal material had been. My gut instinct is that some insects are more "chewed" up than others and probably are easier to digest than a lot of the grubs but I wouldn't quit feeding grubs over it.

 

[Persnickety Parson's]

I hate to be that guy, but I'm going to say superworms should be used with care.

I was a vet assistant up till the COVID19 outbreak, and I've assisted my boss in pulling a few undigested superworm pieces from animals that had passed away due to complications arising from impaction. (Three were chameleons, two veiled and one panther) The worm pieces were in the intestines and unable to pass the cloaca.

I'm not going to say "don't feed superworms" but I am not going recommend them either.

These are just my observations, I'm not criticizing or judging anyone who feeds them. Take this a data point and use your own minds.

 

[Tinytort]

What about wax worms causing gout? Is that bs also?

 

[Persnickety Parson's]

Any dietary item fed in excessive amounts can cause issues, moderation and variety are the keys.

Of course appropriate gutloading and supplementation.

 

[JacksJill]

This story comes from supers that have found dead or dying chameleons on the cage floor (if squeamish stop now) and actually ate their way in because they are carrion eaters.

 

[JacksJill]

Either way you shouldn't feed a lot at once because they aren't the easiest to digest or the best nutritionally.

 

[Ramrod]

I think the only way a superworm gets out is through the dump tube??

 

[jamest0o0]

I hate to be that guy, but I'm going to say superworms should be used with care.

I was a vet assistant up till the COVID19 outbreak, and I've assisted my boss in pulling a few undigested superworm pieces from animals that had passed away due to complications arising from impaction. (Three were chameleons, two veiled and one panther) The worm pieces were in the intestines and unable to pass the cloaca.

I'm not going to say "don't feed superworms" but I am not going recommend them either.

These are just my observations, I'm not criticizing or judging anyone who feeds them. Take this a data point and use your own minds.

And yet in all our years on here, I know of nobody that has had a healthy cham impacted by superworms.

 

[Persnickety Parson's]

And yet in all our years on here, I know of nobody that has had a healthy cham impacted by superworms.

I can only tell you what I've personally seen.

 

[MissSkittles]

And yet in all our years on here, I know of nobody that has had a healthy cham impacted by superworms.

Perhaps had those unfortunate impacted cham’s owners been on the forum, their husbandry would have been good enough to prevent death by superworm impaction.

 

[cyberlocc]

Perhaps had those unfortunate impacted cham’s owners been on the forum, their husbandry would have been good enough to prevent death by superworm impaction.

I was going to say that earlier lol.

Impaction, whether by dirt or Superworm, ect doesn't just happen to a healthy reptile. There was issues long before the impaction killing the Cham.

It gets translated into "Impaction killed the Chameleon" but really bad husbandry that allow impaction to do so is what killed the Chameleon.

We already know from Jacksjill's wild prey studies, and Petr's observations that Wild Chameleons eat lots of Beetles. Beetles with much harder, and much more shell than a Super. The fact that makes up a 3rd or more of wild diet, shows the issue is with us.

 

[Tinytort]

I was going to say that earlier lol.

Impaction, whether by dirt or Superworm, ect doesn't just happen to a healthy reptile. There was issues long before the impaction killing the Cham.

It gets translated into "Impaction killed the Chameleon" but really bad husbandry that allow impaction to do so is what killed the Chameleon.

We already know from Jacksjill's wild prey studies, and Petr's observations that Wild Chameleons eat lots of Beetles. Beetles with much harder, and much more shell than a Super. The fact that makes up a 3rd or more of wild diet, shows the issue is with us.

So, this makes me question the issue with meal worms. If they can digest bone them why can't they digest meal worms?

 

[cyberlocc]

So, this makes me question the issue with meal worms. If they can digest bone them why can't they digest meal worms?

I think they can digest mealworms, its more of a matter of Meal worms being bad feeders, as they are not very nutritious.

Folklore, adds to it like this post myth that supers/meal worms eat their way out of the animal.

Mealworms are a common feeder for beardies ect. They don't have much issue, a well hydrated healthy animal shouldn't.


There is still the argument for Chameleons, that they would not eat either in the wild. If that matters to you. Its something I would like to push for personally. For beardies and ground lizards Mealworms, roaches, worms, crickets would be on the menu. For chameleons they really are not.

Beetles are, and Mealworm beetles fed fruit and pollens may be viable for that reason. Flies are by a large margin, bees / wasps, hard for many folks to obtain. Katydids, and Leaf insects and of course Sticks are also likely on the menu.

Now if we look at the breakdown, I am on my phone atm, but we have a few long threads on this topic. The feeders, the majority is Bees(wasps) / Flies / Beetles. That should be where we as hobbyist keepers should be focusing IMO. Add in whatever sticks or what not we can, for more variety surely.

In doing that, a large portion of the diet is softbodied (see flies) and some is fibrous (see beetles) which should take care of the impaction issues.

Chameleons in nature, are never going to eat most of the "Loved" feeders. See Hornworms, Silkworms, Wax Worms, Superworms, Crickets, ect. The majority of what we feed is unnatural, and could be exaggerating the issues of impaction.

Not to knock Natalie's work, but this gives us a perfect example. Her common feeders in the hobby guide that Beman posted, is prime example. I have highlighted in Green, the Prey Items that Wild Chameleons ACTUALLY eat. As you can see, there is a stark difference from what we feed them, to what they actually eat.

Ladybugs, are said to be toxic, to all herps always heard that myself as well. Fun fact, of the prey studies, beetles make up 30% of the diet, and a very large portion of the beetles, is ladybugs.

 

[jamest0o0]

I think they can digest mealworms, its more of a matter of Meal worms being bad feeders, as they are not very nutritious.

Folklore, adds to it like this post myth that supers/meal worms eat their way out of the animal.

Mealworms are a common feeder for beardies ect. They don't have much issue, a well hydrated healthy animal shouldn't.


There is still the argument for Chameleons, that they would not eat either in the wild. If that matters to you. Its something I would like to push for personally. For beardies and ground lizards Mealworms, roaches, worms, crickets would be on the menu. For chameleons they really are not.

Beetles are, and Mealworm beetles fed fruit and pollens, may be viable for that reason. Flies are by a large margin, bees / wasps, hard for many folks to obtain. Katydids, and Leaf insects and of course Sticks are also likely on the menu.

Now if we look at the breakdown, I am on my phone atm, but we have a few long threads on this topic. The feeders, the majority is Bees(wasps) / Flies / Beetles. That should be where we as hobbyist keepers should be focusing IMO. Add in whatever sticks or what not we can, for more variety surely.

In doing that, a large portion of the diet is softbodied (see flies) and some is fibrous (see beetles) which should take care of the impaction issues.

Chameleons in nature, are never going to eat most of the "Loved" feeders. See Hornworms, Silkworms, Wax Worms, Superworms, Crickets, ect. The majority of what we feed is unnatural, and could be exaggerating the issues of impaction.

Not to knock Natalie's work, but this gives us a perfect example. Her common feeders in the hobby guide that Beman posted, is prime example. I have highlighted in Green, the Prey Items that Wild Chameleons ACTUALLY eat. As you can see, there is a stark difference from what we feed them, to what they actually eat.

Ladybugs, are said to be toxic, to all herps always heard that myself as well. Fun fact, of the prey studies, beetles make up 30% of the diet, and a very large portion of the beetles, is ladybugs.

View attachment 263171

I'm not criticizing you or doubting the benefit of having natural feeders in a cham's diet. I don't have an issue with anyone putting a focus on this either, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt and maybe has benefit. IMO though, the argument that they should only be fed what is found in their natural habitat is flawed. I know not a great comparison, but humans largely benefit off eating non native foods and foods that were only bred/grown into existence thousands of years later. I bet many other animals do too. It's just about meeting the macro/micro nutrient requirements for the particular person. Unless there is an intolerance of something(example, same diet doesn't work the same for every person), I don't know why it would matter. I would love to see a timeline of chams fed an all natural(or as close to as possible) vs chams fed the more conventional foods gutloaded. Highly doubt it'd make much of a difference in their lifespan, but who knows. I think we have came so far in this hobby that we're trying to make problems out of nothing, just like we see in societies that have gotten too easy. Not that there isn't room to improve, but whether someone is feeding 10 bees or or the equivalent of that in crickets dusted with be pollen, I just can't bring myself to believe it would make a difference... could be wrong of course.

I think what is more important would be to find out what they eat the most in the wild, so bees, beetles, hoppers, whatever... find out the nutrients in those, let's say they're all lean protein, very little fat(just a guess). Then just replicate that through commonly available feeders.

Sorry typed this up in a hurry, hope it makes sense.

 

[JoXie411]

And yet in all our years on here, I know of nobody that has had a healthy cham impacted by superworms.

The only time I’ve seen an undigested super what when I was cleaning out Imeldas odd cage when I first got her. Felt bad for her, once her husbandry was improved never seen an undigested super again. She was impacted when I first got her and the vet told me I needed to act fast to get her GI back on track. Just my experience with impacted chameleons

 

[Tinytort]

I think they can digest mealworms, its more of a matter of Meal worms being bad feeders, as they are not very nutritious.

Folklore, adds to it like this post myth that supers/meal worms eat their way out of the animal.

Mealworms are a common feeder for beardies ect. They don't have much issue, a well hydrated healthy animal shouldn't.


There is still the argument for Chameleons, that they would not eat either in the wild. If that matters to you. Its something I would like to push for personally. For beardies and ground lizards Mealworms, roaches, worms, crickets would be on the menu. For chameleons they really are not.

Beetles are, and Mealworm beetles fed fruit and pollens may be viable for that reason. Flies are by a large margin, bees / wasps, hard for many folks to obtain. Katydids, and Leaf insects and of course Sticks are also likely on the menu.

Now if we look at the breakdown, I am on my phone atm, but we have a few long threads on this topic. The feeders, the majority is Bees(wasps) / Flies / Beetles. That should be where we as hobbyist keepers should be focusing IMO. Add in whatever sticks or what not we can, for more variety surely.

In doing that, a large portion of the diet is softbodied (see flies) and some is fibrous (see beetles) which should take care of the impaction issues.

Chameleons in nature, are never going to eat most of the "Loved" feeders. See Hornworms, Silkworms, Wax Worms, Superworms, Crickets, ect. The majority of what we feed is unnatural, and could be exaggerating the issues of impaction.

Not to knock Natalie's work, but this gives us a perfect example. Her common feeders in the hobby guide that Beman posted, is prime example. I have highlighted in Green, the Prey Items that Wild Chameleons ACTUALLY eat. As you can see, there is a stark difference from what we feed them, to what they actually eat.

Ladybugs, are said to be toxic, to all herps always heard that myself as well. Fun fact, of the prey studies, beetles make up 30% of the diet, and a very large portion of the beetles, is ladybugs.

View attachment 263171

That makes a lot sense and very good info thank you.