Swollen Eye Tissue, please help

[sandrachameleon]

I didn't mean to offend, but surely there are resources a vet can refer to in order to get information when faced with an animal they have not seen.

Youre assuming the vet didnt check other resources.
further, "surely" there are not always resources to go to. My vet sometimes finds it quite difficult to get much decent medical text info on chameleons, and she is a specialist. And what works and is documented for one type of chameleon may not work for another type - which not all vets are just going to know. Sometimes they have to rely on best guess. Human doctors do a lot of guessing too.
[/quote]

Mr. Colors, one thing we seemed to have missed:
Please take the red heat light out at night.

actually, this was noticed and already mentioned back in post #6

 

[Elizadolots]

Youre assuming the vet didnt check other resources.
further, "surely" there are not always resources to go to. My vet sometimes finds it quite difficult to get much decent medical text info on chameleons, and she is a specialist. And what works and is documented for one type of chameleon may not work for another type - which not all vets are just going to know. Sometimes they have to rely on best guess. Human doctors do a lot of guessing too.

That does nothing to convince me that prescribing a toxic dose of a medication is acceptable.

actually, this was noticed and already mentioned back in post #6

Well..."you likely do NOT need a night bulb of any kind " is not exactly "don't use the red bulb at night". Based on your post, the OP might well decide that it's great to have a red bulb at night under some circumstances and hey, maybe Mr. Color's house is cold. So, I'll stand by "do not use the red bulb".

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I didn't mean to offend, but surely there are resources a vet can refer to in order to get information when faced with an animal they have not seen. Hack might have been too strong a word, but the vet should certainly have done more than read the printout the owner brought and base his diagnosis and treatment on that.

To give you an idea of what we work with:
In the textbook 'Ophthamology of Exotic Pets' (a very specific text which is not something I would expect 90% of vets to even have) there is picture of a good ol Jackson Chameleon with a swollen eye turret labeled as a "Rhinocerus Iguana" and it is right under the hypovitaminosis A section. So even if this vet took the time to seek out this very specific book (so, research) that can be difficult to find he still did the best he could based on the information provided! The exotics world misinformation doesn't always stop at the pet store level unfortunately...the texts aren't always written by vets. Even Mader's bible 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' talks a lot about hypovitaminosis A as a cause of conjunctivitis. It's not terribly specific as to any particular species and it doesn't really give a whole lot of other differentials. So even in an excellent reptile text by a world renowned board certified reptile vet the issue is not specially mentioned in chameleons. You could see how a vet admittedly not well versed in reptiles would have trouble here... You've been spoiled by having good advice from lots of experience and the input of vet interested in chameleons here on the forums. You've forgotten the real world scenario of dog/cat vets trying to do reptile medicine.

That does nothing to convince me that prescribing a toxic dose of a medication is acceptable.

This particular issue really intrigues me...I did not know about that ointment being toxic and I can find no reference to it being toxic. It's not something that's used much in the reptile world, but I can't find that the reason is because it's toxic. I will keep looking though...

 

[AllFallDown]

To give you an idea of what we work with:
In the textbook 'Ophthamology of Exotic Pets' (a very specific text which is not something I would expect 90% of vets to even have) there is picture of a good ol Jackson Chameleon with a swollen eye turret labeled as a "Rhinocerus Iguana" and it is right under the hypovitaminosis A section. So even if this vet took the time to seek out this very specific book (so, research) that can be difficult to find he still did the best he could based on the information provided! The exotics world misinformation doesn't always stop at the pet store level unfortunately...the texts aren't always written by vets. Even Mader's bible 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' talks a lot about hypovitaminosis A as a cause of conjunctivitis. It's not terribly specific as to any particular species and it doesn't really give a whole lot of other differentials. So even in an excellent reptile text by a world renowned board certified reptile vet the issue is not specially mentioned in chameleons. You could see how a vet admittedly not well versed in reptiles would have trouble here... You've been spoiled by having good advice from lots of experience and actual vet's input here on the forums. You've forgotten the real world scenario of dog/cat vets trying to do reptile medicine.


This particular issue really intrigues me...I did know about that ointment being toxic and I can find no reference to it being toxic. It's not something that's used much in the reptile world, but I can't find that the reason is because it's toxic. I will keep looking though...

Ferret, your mission should you choose to accept it, is to write the most awesome and comprehensive book on Chameleon medicine known to mankind- thus securing you eternal awesomeness status among chameleon people. We will sing your praises and name a holiday in your honor.

(No pressure)

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Hahaha! No pressure or anything. Would you be surprised if I told you that me and another cham vet had already been talking about doing exactly that?

 

[AllFallDown]

Hahaha! No pressure or anything. Would you be surprised if I told you that me and another cham vet had already been talking about doing exactly that?

Awesome! Someone needs to set everyone else straight!

 

[MrColors]

Yep, I immediately stopped using the night heat. Especially because it is extremely hot outside right now--the high for today is 101F!

And I couldn't find very much info on the ointment being toxic either. I actually called the company that makes it (Bausch and Lomb) for more information, and they told me that because no studies have been done using animals, they really don't know, but that it is intended only for cats, dogs, and horses. It was the reptile specialist (Dr. Adolf Maas out of Washington) that I had first contacted who told me it was toxic. Despite my lack of further evidence, I had no choice but to heed his warning. I didn't want to continue use of the ointment just because I wasn't sure that it wasn't toxic, ya know? I figured that if a reptile specialist says it is toxic, that is enough to warrant a complaint and a refund.

Thanks for all posts, comments, and tips! And please--be nice to each other up there!!!

 

[sandrachameleon]

That does nothing to convince me that prescribing a toxic dose of a medication is acceptable..

Im not saying it is.

but what I Am saying is- it was an accidental, unintentional, unfortunate mistake.
One which we shouldnt blame the vet for, because the vet acknowledged up front he or she didnt know chameleons.

We cant expect perfection when perfection is impossible under the best of circumstances, and clearly not promised in this circumstance, right?

(nor do we really know a toxic dose was prescribed, for sure)

I cant expect my local butcher to give me perfect advice regarding fruit, especially if said butcher informed me he was no produce expert. That both the produce expert and the butcher work in a grocery store does not make them interchangable.

You can only expect so much from an non-exotics vet. It might have been better if the mammal vet had said "I dont know about chameleons, so I cant help you at all, go away" but then we'd be complaining about that behaviour too?

I dont like bad vet advice anymore than the next person. But I can understand that not all vets know about chameleons.

 

[Elizadolots]

I really don't want to derail MrColors' thread. We don't agree, that's a perfectly livable situation. I don't want to argue about it.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I really don't want to derail MrColors' thread. We don't agree, that's a perfectly livable situation. I don't want to argue about it.

me neither

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

So I have been digging around a little trying to find something on toxicity of Neobacimyx Ophthalmic in reptiles. I've come up with nothing to support that to be honest. After conversing with another cham friendly vet I've worked with the best we can come up with is that the issue was with the neomycin component of the ointment as a possible concern. Neomycin is an aminoglycoside type of antibiotic, which can have the side effect of kidney toxicity. That being said, the systemic absorption of an ophthalmic ointment is usually not anywhere near high enough to cause a side effect to another organ system. There are some cases of other components affecting other systems mildly, but usually not enough to cause actual toxicity. The eye and conjunctiva are really the only places where you see the effect of ophthalmic drugs. My other vet friend (with much more experience than me) does not believe this ointment would have been toxic, and has used it on chameleons before without side effects. So you shouldn't see toxicity unless you were feeding it to him or injecting it in him. So since you obviously weren't going to do that it should be safe. Here's the ironic part...the replacement drops that you verified with the other specialist as being safe were gentamicin drops. Well that's an aminoglycoside as well, so same family of drug means same potential side effects.

Like I said before, ointments and drops applied to the eyes don't really absorb well enough to cause side effects in other organs at least 90% of the time so I'm pretty sure you are safe with either option. But if you're really worried you can always try Terramycin ointment instead. It's an antibiotic in a different family so kidney damage isn't one of its side effects.

In conclusion, I do not believe your original vet was wrong to prescribe you that medication as the toxicity issue is not something we see through that type of application. I don't blame you for changing it though based on the advice given! I probably would have done the same without knowing any different. So there's just a little info for your consideration. It's up to you entirely on if you'd like to stick with the current treatment or make another change. I hope your little guy starts showing improvement soon!