Swollen Throat

[Chameleon Company]

Guys,
I don't think there is a vet out there, or chameleon person, that can pinpoint the cause of edema in chameleons. Studies have indicated links to over-supplementation, under-supplementation, vitamin deficiencies inherent at birth (hatch), organ failures, etc. We have seen plenty of it here through the years, as we deal with many many chameleons. It is our experience that it is most often a vitamin deficiency, and we have never seen D-3 over-supplementation implicated, although we have never deliberately overdosed with D-3 to see what happens. Gular edema is somewhat common in fully-formed neonates that do not hatch.

 

[Will Hayward]

Jim, do you supplement with D3 in any form? (after rereading the article once more- you do) as your chameleons receive real sun it would be unlikely that they could even overdose from the light absorption, so if it is as you say, more often Vitamin related, would you mind giving some keys to how average keepers could do it properly to minimize the risk? How to estimate correct amounts for the chameleons requirements?

Also, you reccomended using Pre Formed Vitamin A which in studies have been proven to build up in the system leading to edema, you also state that one should not depend on Pro Vitamin A sources (Beta-Carotenes) which do not buildup and would not cause edema. Mind expanding on this a bit so I can add to my notes on this subject?

Would be much appreciated for my curiosity and personal learning if not for anyone elses.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Will,

For many reasons, I can't say all that I know. One reason is that it is all still a work-in-progress, so there are not definitive answers to all the vitmain balances that are desireable, and how to achieve them in your chameleon. I do feel safe with the following, including the preamble.

We exercised initial caution several years ago with the D-3 / sunlight concerns. We eventually came to believe that animals that get natural sunlight do not face a danger of D-3 over-supplementation using any of the standard products, such as Rep-Cal with D-3. We would strongly recommend against anyone buying their own D-3 and making their own concoction, as it is a very potent vitamin. The Rep-Cal (with D-3) blend is fine, and we believe that dusting twice a week with an animal, regardless of whether it gets real sun or not, is safe and recommended.

You are right that beta-carotene provides a large margin of safety from over-dosing as a pro-vitamin A, or precursor. I am very inclined to say that it is useless in chameleons as a precursor as well, and is not an effective source of Vitamin A to them. Beta-carotene by the truckload does not seem to prevent Vitamin A deficiency in chameleons. Pre-formed Vitamin A, preferrably in the form of retinal palmitate, does directly address the Vitamin A needs in chameleons.

We are still some time from refining everything regarding both doses and means of delivery that we feel are necessary and in balance. The real proof in a concoction's effectiveness is in the hatch rates and health of the female's offspring, as well as her continued health after laying. That takes time. Unfortunately, there is a ton of bad information out there, and bad product.

 

[Heika]

Pre-formed Vitamin A, preferrably in the form of retinal palmitate, does directly address the Vitamin A needs in chameleons.

Jim.. what dosage schedule do you use with your chameleons?

Thanks,

Heika

 

[Will Hayward]

Much thanks Jim. We do understand that there are somethings that you can't share and that there are also things best not shared as our chameleon keeping habbits can easily be obsured and run by our individual thoughts and preferences.

Good to know about hte rep-Cal brand which should be able to overdose as I have been looking at other brands to use. I'll second your statement about keepers formulating their own D3, they dont test these supplements the companies make for years and years just for nothing.

If Provitamin A (even by the truckloads) is not preventing Vitamin A deficiency, and not giving risk to Hypervitaminosis A, do you beleive that it is doing the chameleon any other good in other ways? Something that Previtamin A might not?

If I remember correctly, I have also heard mentions by Connie Dorval (Personal communication) that F.Pardalis in particular has shown much benifit from Preformed VitA rather than Beta-Carotenes. Have you any word on comparasion to the two types and their uses with different species? I'll have to borrow her booklet again to see what she says on the matter in there if anything.

Chameleons will never be totally understood and care instructions will never be carved in stone, but each time something is researched or discovered or even slightly theorized I feel as if the mysteries unwind for us. I would be fantastic to have some researches study in the wild the breakdowns of everyday life for wild specimens, finding out what insects they eat have what nutrients, and try to understand better what and how much they are absorbing by the sun.

Thanks for the enlightenment once more and as always Jim.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Jim.. what dosage schedule do you use with your chameleons?

Thanks,

Heika

i recently talked to jim, he told me to put some on a q-tip(just enough so that you can whipe it on your arm and leave a thin coat) and then swab the inside of the chameleons mouth....he said not to squirt it directly into the chams mouth because chameleons cant stand the grease/oil(they will gag/reguragitate)...

HOPE I WAS OF SOME HELP!

 

[Chameleon Company]

That's correct Heika. You are looking for an oral dose in the 100-150 iu range, which is very small, weekly for an adult chameleon. Most formulations are in the 3000-5000 iu range per drop.

Will, don't have much to go on regarding other species. Also do not know what happens if beta-carotene is removed from the diet. Most commercial dusts contain it, as do many of the vegetables used by hobbyists. I can't recommend taking it out of the diet, and would still lobby to have it included, as we know it does not harm them. Kind of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach.

 

[rudischameleons]

that chameleon if a female for sure.

 

[Heika]

Thanks for the help Jake and Jim. I will talk to my vet about getting retinol palmitate, as it doesn't seem to be available online anywhere.

Heika

 

[kinyonga]

There's an article about Carotenoids/vitamin A in chameleon eggs that says "Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors"...does this not mean that the chameleons can convert beta carotene?

In all my years of keeping chameleons, I have only had one necropsy (and I have had dozens of chameleons necropsied) come back with a vitamin A imbalance...and it was a deficiency. Curiously enough, it was during the time when I used Nekton-rep (with preformed vitamin A) as a supplement. BTW...this chameleon had no gular edema and at the age of about a year (I'd have to look it up to tell you her exact age) she was about the size of a normal two month old.