T8 5.0 vs. T5 5.0

[Amun]

Hello everyone, i’ve had my panther chameleon on a T8 5.0 UVB for about a year now, Vet says he’s happy and healthy. I’ve been seeing more and more of T 5.0 HO being the standard and it being “ necessary” for a 3.0 UVB Rating. I initially followed the information on Kammerflage Kreations and it’s worked well for me so far. Can anyone explain why a 3.0/T5 HO is “needed” ? From what i’ve seen it truly isn’t for the animal as me and many others have used a T8 5.0 and have had success. There has also been research that has come out recording the uvb rating of chameleons in the wild, and where the spend almost all of there time isn’t even close to 3.0. If anyone could show me research and change my mind i’d love to give the best care to my baby.

 

[SteveH]

The uvi out of T8 doesn't penetrate into the enclosure at the depth that T5 will is the main reason T5 is recommended. Either can and do work when setup properly.

 

[nightanole]

T8 5.0 is great for a 12-18" tall "tank" because the dead zone will start 6-8 from the bottom of the tank. However in a 4ft tall chameleon cage, the T8 5.0 will only put out usable uvb for 6-8 inches into the cage, the rest of the cage will be a dead zone.

I too used T8 5.0, but again it was when i had cages less than 2ft tall.

By comparison a T5HO 5.0 will have usable UVB 2ft into the cage. This would be bad for a 2ft cage, but perfect for a 4ft tall cage.


In terms of output power, you gain 33% by just switching to the T5 profile. Now a "HO" doubles the wattage. So no you have a bulb that is 33% more efficient and double the wattage, so you are putting out almost 3 times the UVB, and due to reflectors and stuff, its going a lot father into the cage before getting dispersed.

Also your little darling isnt hanging out at "3.0" unless it wants too. You are just giving it the option to sun itself from time to time, its perfectly free to just hang out at the 2ft mark and only get .5-1.0.

 

[Amun]

T8 5.0 is great for a 12-18" tall "tank" because the dead zone will start 6-8 from the bottom of the tank. However in a 4ft tall chameleon cage, the T8 5.0 will only put out usable uvb for 6-8 inches into the cage, the rest of the cage will be a dead zone.

I too used T8 5.0, but again it was when i had cages less than 2ft tall.

By comparison a T5HO 5.0 will have usable UVB 2ft into the cage. This would be bad for a 2ft cage, but perfect for a 4ft tall cage.


In terms of output power, you gain 33% by just switching to the T5 profile. Now a "HO" doubles the wattage. So no you have a bulb that is 33% more efficient and double the wattage, so you are putting out almost 3 times the UVB, and due to reflectors and stuff, its going a lot father into the cage before getting dispersed.

Also your little darling isnt hanging out at "3.0" unless it wants too. You are just giving it the option to sun itself from time to time, its perfectly free to just hang out at the 2ft mark and only get .5-1.0.

But why would i make the top of the enclosure that intense w uvb when he likes be as high up as possible? He doesn’t want to hang out at the 2 ft mark so why should i force him into regulating that. Also isn’t is fine that he only gets UVB when he’s basking or up high? that’s where he is most of the day. I’m not fighting against it, just trying to learn as to why and not because chameleon academy or someone else said so.

 

[Amun]

The uvi out of T8 doesn't penetrate into the enclosure at the depth that T5 will is the main reason T5 is recommended. Either can and do work when setup properly.

So you’d agree it’s fine to have a T8 5.0 If my cham is happy and healthy?

 

[nightanole]

But why would i make the top of the enclosure that intense w uvb when he likes be as high up as possible? He doesn’t want to hang out at the 2 ft mark so why should i force him into regulating that. Also isn’t is fine that he only gets UVB when he’s basking or up high? that’s where he is most of the day. I’m not fighting against it, just trying to learn as to why and not because chameleon academy or someone else said so.

What if the only reason hes hanging out at the top, is because that is were all the usefull uvb is? Ive made 7ft tall cages, and mine would hang out mostly just in the middle.

There is normally a reason why a chameleon only hangs out in a certain section of the cage. I can make all mine hang out at the bottom if my room stays above 85f during the day. And they all camp out next to the basking spot if its only 65f or less in the winter.

 

[Little Man Simba]

These comparisons are with the bulb on top of the screen, correct? I have a t5ho 10.0 hanging 10" above the screen, 13.5" from the light at basking (to the top of his back). Is this suitable or too much exposure?

 

[nightanole]

So you’d agree it’s fine to have a T8 5.0 If my cham is happy and healthy?

Yup. Infact T8 5.0 was highly recomended from the late 1990's till the early 2000's when we didnt have "chameleon cages", and kept them in "tall viviariums/glass tanks".

Id say your cham would be perfectly healthy with a T8 5.0 with the correct vit D supplement. Ive raised 2 in the 1990's like that with sticky tongue farms indoor d3 powder, all got good marks from the vet.

Infact your cham would be unhealthy if you later on got a T5HO and kept them on the same D supplement, you would be over supplementing.

 

[Little Man Simba]

These comparisons are with the bulb on top of the screen, correct? I have a t5ho 10.0 hanging 10" above the screen, 13.5" from the light at basking (to the top of his back). Is this suitable or too much exposure?

Also, worth noting... Simba only has one level ( at basking level) right now because he is rehabilitating, however one side of his cage is covered so he can get away from the light.

 

[Amun]

What if the only reason hes hanging out at the top, is because that is were all the usefull uvb is? Ive made 7ft tall cages, and mine would hang out mostly just in the middle.

There is normally a reason why a chameleon only hangs out in a certain section of the cage. I can make all mine hang out at the bottom if my room stays above 85f during the day. And they all camp out next to the basking spot if its only 65f or less in the winter.

Don’t get me wrong, i think i worded that wrong he explores plenty, he just loves his spot next to the window which is not under the basking bulb or the uvb, he also loves the branch directly under it. He explores plenty, it’s just winter right now and the enclosure takes a while to heat up. And the same could be applied for your cham hanging around the middle, What i’m mostly asking is if the behavior is correct and he’s doing well, is there any added benefit really that i’m not seeing?

 

[Little Man Simba]

While this is in discussion, what are the immediate/early signs of overexposure? And underexposure?

 

[Amun]

Yup. Infact T8 5.0 was highly recomended from the late 1990's till the early 2000's when we didnt have "chameleon cages", and kept them in "tall viviariums/glass tanks".

Id say your cham would be perfectly healthy with a T8 5.0 with the correct vit D supplement. Ive raised 2 in the 1990's like that with sticky tongue farms indoor d3 powder, all got good marks from the vet.

Infact your cham would be unhealthy if you later on got a T5HO and kept them on the same D supplement, you would be over supplementing.

I’m sorry if i came across as rude or defensive, i love to learn and do the best I can by expanding my knowledge, and this has been extremely helpful. I want to truly understand instead of follow

 

[nightanole]

These comparisons are with the bulb on top of the screen, correct? I have a t5ho 10.0 hanging 10" above the screen, 13.5" from the light at basking (to the top of his back). Is this suitable or too much exposure?

https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/

10.0=12%

So as long as the cham is a foot away or farther, you are in the happy zone. So your 13.5" is perfect. Most would hang it 6" above the screen, and rig up the cage so the cham doesnt get closer that 6" from the screen, kinda splitting it 50/50.

 

[Amun]

While this is in discussion, what are the immediate/early signs of overexposure? And underexposure?

Overexposure you can look up pictures of UV Burns in the retinas and often closed eyes, i can’t link pictures for some reason. Underexposure can lead to MBD either quickly or slowly, but proper supplements w ur UVB and you should be good, more is not always better and distance is super important.

 

[nightanole]

While this is in discussion, what are the immediate/early signs of overexposure? And underexposure?

Early signs of "the wrong combo" for over exposure is edema. Your cham will start getting swelling on the head and neck from over supplementing from using too high of UVB in combo with too high of vit D.

Early signs of under exposure is "misses" with the tongue. They never miss, if they are missing, it is because the fling bone is bending or starting to warp during high growth spurts.

But there are always extremes. Some are using High UVB and zero D3 and getting good results. And some use "non uvb" bulbs and 100% supplement with D3 and getting good results.

 

[nightanole]

Overexposure you can look up pictures of UV Burns in the retinas and often closed eyes, i can’t link pictures for some reason. Underexposure can lead to MBD either quickly or slowly, but proper supplements w ur UVB and you should be good, more is not always better and distance is super important.

You also have to filter out the results from 10-15 years ago that had an industry wide problem of a bad phosphor mix that caused non terrestrial UVC to be generated, and if you didnt have the right meter, everything looked "good". But what happened was instead of putting out UVB in the bone growth band, it was putting it out in the deep uvb/uvc range instead.

 

[Amun]

You also have to filter out the results from 10-15 years ago that had an industry wide problem of a bad phosphor mix that caused non terrestrial UVC to be generated, and if you didnt have the right meter, everything looked "good". But what happened was instead of putting out UVB in the bone growth band, it was putting it out in the deep uvb/uvc range instead.

Yes! it’s amazing how information has changed so much specifically in chameleon care and info.

 

[SteveH]

@DeremensisBlue Could explain all this better than I

 

[Little Man Simba]

Thanks everyone for your quick responses!

I think I may have to change something. Simba has been going through A LOT in the past 9 months and the vet and I are both trying to determine what the underlying cause(s) are. (Ive posted on this)...Hence the reason why is has a "rehab" house right now, physically he is very weak and lethargic, seems painful (closed eyes/inactivity) and he was extremely dehydrated due to off the chart sodium and chloride levels (the only thing I can attribute this to is bad water, I've switched to bottled spring & distilled water)...

He is now mostly hydrated and he is getting water on his own now, but his eyes stay mostly closed most of the time. Im wondering if this is partially due to high uvb? He opens his eyes fully for about an hour or so, but never for very long. I've been associating this with pain, but now I'm thinking he is overexposed and I should switch back to the 5.0, especially because I have noticed edema in the past 2 days (which I attributed to sub q fluids) mainly around his neck "gullet". I don't want to keep changing things on him, but I definitely do not want him painful or uncomfortable

 

[Little Man Simba]

Early signs of "the wrong combo" for over exposure is edema. Your cham will start getting swelling on the head and neck from over supplementing from using too high of UVB in combo with too high of vit D.

Early signs of under exposure is "misses" with the tongue. They never miss, if they are missing, it is because the fling bone is bending or starting to warp during high growth spurts.

But there are always extremes. Some are using High UVB and zero D3 and getting good results. And some use "non uvb" bulbs and 100% supplement with D3 and getting good results.

He has not been using his tongue very well. These past 4 months I've been handfeeding him (water as well). A couple of days ago he started going for water on his own (yay!!), stretching his tongue a little. He does not have mbd, I have suspected gout.

It seems that he has symptoms of both under & overexposure (however this may not have anything to do with lighting at all)