Tampa Repticon SCORE!!

[Chameleon Company]

I want to take issue with the notion that if a chameleon photo is posted as a certain Locale, and others disagree with the identification, that it is better to send a PM, or somehow shows a lack of respect to post a dissent in thread.

Folks come here expecting knowledgeable opinions, and especially when they know that some members here have enormous experience with chameleons.

If such as a panther chameleon is posted as "look at my beautiful Ambanja" for instance, and in the eyes of those of us with loads of experience, it is not an Ambanja, is a hybrid, etc, then to only note such in PM is to allow the image to stand as a reflection to junior readers of what an "Ambanja" should look like. In essence, if it is misidentified yet allowed to stand without educated dissent, changing the phenotype expectation for that Locale.

What is wrong with healthy respectful debate about Locale identification ?

If one is going to post an animal here for review, then it's "game on" folks.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Unfortunately it is very difficult to specifically characterize a locale in a way that effectively differentiates it from another. The reality is that no characteristic is going to be perfect and you’re always going to have examples that do not fit for one character or another, despite the purity of an animal. In general it's a certain look that you get used to picking up on with time. So with that said, I don’t know that I can effectively characterize what I would expect an Ambato to look like in a way that will explicitly disqualify animals that I can otherwise look at and say without a doubt that they aren’t Ambato, but I'll at least try to give you an idea of some of the things I think of as typical for this locale.

First, here are two photos I took of F. pardalis on the Ambato peninsula:

To me, an Ambato will have a light blue coloration (almost white in areas) with dark/purplish –red (or sometimes dark blue) bars and a broken white longitudinal stripe. These bars often fade dorsally (i.e., https://www.chameleonforums.com/who-has-blue-turquoise-ambato-panther-12468/index3.html#post100525). The eye turrets will have dark radiating bars, but will not be overly red (i.e., http://www.flickr.com/photos/36524915@N05/8746260042) and will generally have a yellow infused background color. Yellow will also typically be exhibited in the temporal region and on the posterior ends of the lips. When fired up, the light blue body becomes light, almost white. The light blue portion of the body will not have red speckling (i.e., http://image.shutterstock.com/displ...s-in-front-of-a-white-background-13508377.jpg). Further, the dark red bars will not have dark blue speckling (i.e., http://static9.depositphotos.com/15...-Chameleon-Nosy-Be-skin-Furcifer-pardalis.jpg), nor will dark blue bars (when present) have red speckling (i.e., http://flchams.com/inventory/BrantleyWeb.jpg). Dark red/blue bars can be infused with the light blue, however (i.e., http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7008/bluediamond3ci8.jpg or http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eyYuo_Xv2...Vambm5kkncs/s1600/ambanja_blue_diamond020.jpg).

Looking at your animal, the white you are talking about seems like faded blue in an old animal (not that Ambato’s don’t get old too, I'm just pointing out that the "white-ness" may not be what it seems). There also seems to be quite a bit of red infusing the pale blue/white areas, particularly at the posterior half and on the head where it is not included in discrete barring.

As I said, none of these are perfect, and a lot of it boils down to just having seen a lot of them over the years and having a feel for it.

Chris

Hey Chris. Thanks for sharing the pics. Wish I had some to post of imports from many moons ago, but I gave up on Ambatos about 8 years ago, and have crashed numerous computers since.

I agree with your evaluation methods, and approach Locale ID similarly, first looking to see what my initial impression is, but then looking for disqualifying characteristics, a much more common finding in this age of so many hybrids.

I have never been to Mada, much less the Ambato region. I remember when the Locale was first trumpeted with Olaf's images from Madagascar that showed stunning dark blue bars on a light blue background. And then, in two separate shipments, I imported animals that look as your photos, and as the image in the OP, which simply put, was maroon on gray to me. Not particularly attractive. I also acquired a few from another importer, and it was the same.

When I looked at the OP image, I see no disqualifiers. It looks exactly as I recall from the 20 or so WC adult males that I have held.

 

[chamcapture]

I have to agree with Jim. I see no disqualifying characteristics either. I took him out of his cage to get a much better pic. How's this? Maybe now you can get a better idea. The second pic is a red bar Ambanja I use to own. I see big differences between the two.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I have to agree with Jim. I see no disqualifying characteristics either. I took him out of his cage to get a much better pic. How's this? Maybe now you can get a better idea.

He does look to be getting along in years, but I am as sure as ever that your first impression was correct. I have no idea where to tell you to find pedigree females to breed him with. My own imports for this coming season are booked already, and that Locale is not on our list.

I am going to insert a tangent topic here, that being imported females. Beginning with Nosy Faly's, and now with almost every Locale, a few of the largest exporters in Madagascar are deliberately substituting farm-raised mislabeled females, almost always Ambanja and Nosy Be, for other requested females. It is a deliberate sabotaging of bloodlines by a few exporters. For instance, where I could order 10.30 Ambilobes, and get the 10 male Ambilobes, but the 30 females would be anything but Ambilobes. I have spoken to people in Madagascar who have confirmed this practice by a few of the larger exporters, and have documented numerous shipments in the last 5 years where this happened. It is why many of the initial strains of Nosy Faly in the US were in fact Ambanja/Faly hybrids, as well as Ambilobe and Nosy Be mixed in.

I bring this up because one can no longer count on any imported female to be true. One must now "prove-out" the girls, which can take up 8-12 months to do. You might pay very good money for "Ambato" females fresh off the boat, only to find out a year later that you were screwed.

 

[chamcapture]

He does look to be getting along in years, but I am as sure as ever that your first impression was correct. I have no idea where to tell you to find pedigree females to breed him with. My own imports for this coming season are booked already, and that Locale is not on our list.

I am going to insert a tangent topic here, that being imported females. Beginning with Nosy Faly's, and now with almost every Locale, a few of the largest exporters in Madagascar are deliberately substituting farm-raised mislabeled females, almost always Ambanja and Nosy Be, for other requested females. It is a deliberate sabotaging of bloodlines by a few exporters. For instance, where I could order 10.30 Ambilobes, and get the 10 male Ambilobes, but the 30 females would be anything but Ambilobes. I have spoken to people in Madagascar who have confirmed this practice by a few of the larger exporters, and have documented numerous shipments in the last 5 years where this happened. It is why many of the initial strains of Nosy Faly in the US were in fact Ambanja/Faly hybrids, as well as Ambilobe and Nosy Be mixed in.

I bring this up because one can no longer count on any imported female to be true. One must now "prove-out" the girls, which can take up 8-12 months to do. You might pay very good money for "Ambato" females fresh off the boat, only to find out a year later that you were screwed.

Jim, you have confirmed my biggest fear!! I know getting an imported Ambato female would be a crap shoot!! I'm afraid this guy will probably expire before I am able to get a female for him. Although, I have shown him a female and he goes nuts!! So he may have some time left, I don't know. Thanks for reconfirming my identification of this guy, means a lot coming from you!!