Tanzania Open!

[Cainschams]

If everyone one mostly depends on captive bred animals and only buys wild caught to start up completely new or to add more genetics to breeding programs we should be good.

As was said in Pauls new thread, most of them came in bad shape. Its a shame and this is usually how it goes. Getting a few pairs into good keepers hands is not worth the thousands of chameleons that get exported every year that just die.

I'm could speculate however attempting to account for all the different scenario's of how chameleons arrive and are offered for sale and why people buy them would become unbelievably ridiculous affair. My lone male Parsonii I have been looking for a female (and possibly have found) for about three years now. The point being captive bred or wild caught we the keepers and breeders are making our hobbies (and even jobs) happen and work. Without occasional wild caught chameleons there would not be captive bred animals and we would no long have our hobby.

Again, same comment I made can be said here. Its just a shame that we hold our personal pleasure higher than welfare of a species. Ive bought WC and Ive supported it but the more and more I have thought about it the more I am done with it. It hasnt worked in the many years these animals have been exported only with a few different species. Its time to admit that the few CB specimen we get out of thousands of WCs is bullshit.

I know many of you are huge fans however there are some Kinyongia tavetana for sale on Kingsanke. Seems as though it has been five year since we have seen those. Plus some Tanzania Trioceros and other Kinyongia.

Perfect example. I hatched 4 clutches of these and there arent any of the animals left and none of them bred except maybe one pair. I havent heard from her. I didnt keep any but even if I did and did get them to produce it would be the same story.

Just a sad situation altogether for the animals.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

As was said in Pauls new thread, most of them came in bad shape. Its a shame and this is usually how it goes. Getting a few pairs into good keepers hands is not worth the thousands of chameleons that get exported every year that just die.



Again, same comment I made can be said here. Its just a shame that we hold our personal pleasure higher than welfare of a species. Ive bought WC and Ive supported it but the more and more I have thought about it the more I am done with it. It hasnt worked in the many years these animals have been exported only with a few different species. Its time to admit that the few CB specimen we get out of thousands of WCs is bullshit.



Perfect example. I hatched 4 clutches of these and there arent any of the animals left and none of them bred except maybe one pair. I havent heard from her. I didnt keep any but even if I did and did get them to produce it would be the same story.

Just a sad situation altogether for the animals.

You make it seem as though I'm for large scale mass import of all species. Which is an absolute misinterpretation of most everything I have posted on this forum as I'm not. I'm for conservative sustainable quotas of species that are species whose habitats are not threatened from diapering from their native lands. I was one of the first ones to criticize the Tanzania quotas of Chamaeleo fisheri (that's about how it was spelled in the species list in the CITES Tanzania quota's) as being labeled in an over generalized manner and the amount of 3000 animals was excessive. I have even stated in the past that I think all the quotas for all four Madagascar species are excessive. I think the majority of the specimens in the hobby should be supplied by breeders with captive bred animals. However to start and maintain this kind of breeding wild caught animals are required however I think could be done with conservative imports not thousands of imports.

I as well think we as keepers have got the responsibilities to step up and demand that these chameleons are shipped are shipped with higher standards and more regard for the chameleons in mind. With the ideal that if as Paul pointed out if some of the chameleons in the shipment arrive in great shape why did the rest not arrive in great shape. I think public relations from group such as this Chameleon Forums could have a lasting effect on problems such as this and probably the best way to start would be to talk to the pet shops who receive these shipment or talking and making demands as long time customers to the wholesalers and exporters them selves.

Jarred you can go ahead and give up on your hobby I understand. I have been there in the past. I did not because life is more enriching with them around and this problem is one big reason I always look to buy captive breed first. However walking away is not confronting the challenge and this problem I think can be solved with higher importation standards. As why I asked about what condition they came in? Just to state it its time we demand they arrive in the best condition as possible. A mistake made and nothing learned is a mistake to be made again. As well this is always the main problem with shipping anything that is a perishable.

And I'm still a fan of Panther Chameleons!!!

It is not bull st!!t it is a job that is not being done that has to be done. At least in Tanzania which this ban was supposed to fix.

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chameleonmaster]

As was said in Pauls new thread, most of them came in bad shape. Its a shame and this is usually how it goes. Getting a few pairs into good keepers hands is not worth the thousands of chameleons that get exported every year that just die.



Again, same comment I made can be said here. Its just a shame that we hold our personal pleasure higher than welfare of a species. Ive bought WC and Ive supported it but the more and more I have thought about it the more I am done with it. It hasnt worked in the many years these animals have been exported only with a few different species. Its time to admit that the few CB specimen we get out of thousands of WCs is bullshit.



Perfect example. I hatched 4 clutches of these and there arent any of the animals left and none of them bred except maybe one pair. I havent heard from her. I didnt keep any but even if I did and did get them to produce it would be the same story.

Just a sad situation altogether for the animals.

I feel that the only thing that's ever really going to be established and stay that way is veiled and panthers. Not enough people have interest in the other species with horns, flaps, and non panther colors. That's why nothing gets established longterm.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I feel that the only thing that's ever really going to be established and stay that way is veiled and panthers. Not enough people have interest in the other species with horns, flaps, and non panther colors. That's why nothing gets established longterm.

I think Trioceros quadricornis, Trioceros deremensis, Kinyongia multituberculata, and possibly Kinyongia matschiei have got a shot at becoming established in captivity in the USA.

Along with all the Jacksons chameleons. Andreas has been doing Parsonii ever year the last four or five years in Germany.

 

[Chameleonmaster]

I think Trioceros quadricornis, Trioceros deremensis, Kinyongia multituberculata, and possibly Kinyongia matschiei have got a shot at becoming established in captivity in the USA.

Along with all the Jacksons chameleons. Andreas has been doing Parsonii ever year the last four or five years in Germany.

K. Multituberculata I think is already established by seeco and Jackson's are too but the rest I think still have awhile IMO. Since we received the import I think if t. deremensis get into the right hands they have a shot.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

No young one there are more many more. Here's one thread with Trioceros quadricornis and there are plenty of other keepers sitting on eggs. There are about a half dozen that I know of (I am one) working with breeding Trioceros deremensis.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/more-baby-quads-hatching-106639/

 

[Chameleonmaster]

I stand corrected, I had no clue that there were more people with quads and deremensis. I guess all I see are panther threads and every once in awhile something different. I know reptoman ( i think thats his screen name) had sold his deremensis awhile ago.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

K. Multituberculata I think is already established by seeco and Jackson's are too but the rest I think still have awhile IMO. Since we received the import I think if t. deremensis get into the right hands they have a shot.

Multis are surely not established by veiled or panther standards, but Louis has done a great Job and made a great effort to get their foot in the door and on the right path. More than one person should be breeding them to the extent that he has to be considered established IMO..

There are a few others out there doing a good job with their species of choice.

Dooley1 with carpets, and luevelet with dermensis. Many people are doing well with quads now it seems. Just a matter of time IMO.

According to Bert Langerwerf it would really take 25-50 unrelated subjects to effectively establish any population long term. We just need the right people with the right interests and level of keeping.

 

[Chameleonmaster]

Multis are surely not established by veiled or panther standards, but Louis has done a great Job and made a great effort to get their foot in the door and on the right path. More than one person should be breeding them to the extent that he has to be considered established IMO..

There are a few others out there doing a good job with their species of choice.

Dooley1 with carpets, and luevelet with dermensis. Many people are doing well with quads now it seems. Just a matter of time IMO.

According to Bert Langerwerf it would really take 25-50 unrelated subjects to effectively establish any population long term. We just need the right people with the right interests and level of keeping.

My view is that chameleons have become more of pets to people than they should be.

Nothing is close to being at the panther or veiled standards! But It is nice to see people with "different" chameleons besides the usual.
To get them to Bert's standards we would need a shipment from Cameroon for the quads because I don't think we have close to 50 unrelated lines. When was the last time one of those shipments came in?

 

[Cainschams]

You make it seem as though I'm for large scale mass import of all species. Which is an absolute misinterpretation of most everything I have posted on this forum as I'm not. I'm for conservative sustainable quotas of species that are species whose habitats are not threatened from diapering from their native lands. I was one of the first ones to criticize the Tanzania quotas of Chamaeleo fisheri (that's about how it was spelled in the species list in the CITES Tanzania quota's) as being labeled in an over generalized manner and the amount of 3000 animals was excessive. I have even stated in the past that I think all the quotas for all four Madagascar species are excessive. I think the majority of the specimens in the hobby should be supplied by breeders with captive bred animals. However to start and maintain this kind of breeding wild caught animals are required however I think could be done with conservative imports not thousands of imports.

I as well think we as keepers have got the responsibilities to step up and demand that these chameleons are shipped are shipped with higher standards and more regard for the chameleons in mind. With the ideal that if as Paul pointed out if some of the chameleons in the shipment arrive in great shape why did the rest not arrive in great shape. I think public relations from group such as this Chameleon Forums could have a lasting effect on problems such as this and probably the best way to start would be to talk to the pet shops who receive these shipment or talking and making making demands as long time customers to the wholesalers and exporters them selves.

Jarred you can go ahead and give up on your hobby I understand. I have been there in the past. I did not because life is more enriching with them around and this problem is one big reason I always look to buy captive breed first. However walking away is not confronting the challenge and this problem I think can be solved with higher importation standards. As why I asked about what condition they came in? Just to state it its time we demand they arrive in the best condition as possible. A mistake made and nothing learned is a mistake to be made again. As well this is always the main problem with shipping anything that is a perishable.

And I'm still a fan of Panther Chameleons!!!

Jeremy A. Rich

My comments werent completely directed toward you just generalizing some of what was brought up. I know you are all for lower quotas etc. so please dont take it as a personal attack just kind of generalizing. Should have mentioned that at first

It would be nice to see less quotas and better care to animals being exported. Personally, I dont think it will get better in enough time especially with all the habitat destruction though nor do I think most of the importers, exporters and bigger resale shops will give a hoot no matter how many people "stand up" unless no one keeps buying them. The only true way to conserve these animals is not going to be establishing CB populations. Its going to have to be people who have gone through a lot of schooling etc. like Chris. A. I may be a Debbie Downer and I hope I am wrong.

I doubt I can completely give up in a sense that if someone needs my opinion (which I think there are plenty out there who know as much or more about the species I have kept) I will be glad to help out. As far as keeping them, Ill be happy to walk away from that. I get much more satisfaction seeing animals in the wild. I belong to http://www.nafha.org/ now which is pushing to become a "legit" herp research group and get the "higher ups" to recognize us and our database as one to where we would be able to get certain licenses (even as hobbyists) to research certain areas and animals. That right there is more appealing to me than being a part of depleting a group of animals.

 

[Damian]

I would love some pygmies!

Wild caught to me is ok as long as it doesnt hurt or danger the animals in any way ! Can somebody pm or post reply where i might get some lil pigs. If so that would rock TY

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

My comments werent completely directed toward you just generalizing some of what was brought up. I know you are all for lower quotas etc. so please dont take it as a personal attack just kind of generalizing. Should have mentioned that at first

It would be nice to see less quotas and better care to animals being exported. Personally, I dont think it will get better in enough time especially with all the habitat destruction though nor do I think most of the importers, exporters and bigger resale shops will give a hoot no matter how many people "stand up" unless no one keeps buying them. The only true way to conserve these animals is not going to be establishing CB populations. Its going to have to be people who have gone through a lot of schooling etc. like Chris. A. I may be a Debbie Downer and I hope I am wrong.

I doubt I can completely give up in a sense that if someone needs my opinion (which I think there are plenty out there who know as much or more about the species I have kept) I will be glad to help out. As far as keeping them, Ill be happy to walk away from that. I get much more satisfaction seeing animals in the wild. I belong to http://www.nafha.org/ now which is pushing to become a "legit" herp research group and get the "higher ups" to recognize us and our database as one to where we would be able to get certain licenses (even as hobbyists) to research certain areas and animals. That right there is more appealing to me than being a part of depleting a group of animals.

Well thanks a bit! Actually some good conservation news from Tanzania even though they have had their problems. The Usambara Mountain range where Kinyongia matschiei, Trioceros deremensis, Kinyongia multituberculata and other Trioceros and Kinyongia are native to has been considered as being made into a world heritage site. If that happens that is going to provide long term lasting conservation for a lot of these species on a local and world conservation level (conservationist locally and from around the world will be apart of studying this area long term) in the wild.

As for demanding higher standards from chameleon collectors, exporters and importers it is about time that was mentioned on these forums. The clothe sacks have got to go. I have seen some designs that were being used that had a perch for the chameleon and air wholes inside the box. That way they could be stacked and not packed on top on top of each other if they are using those terrible bags still. If there are places still using those terrible clothe bags which I think there are those have got to go.

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Its going to have to be people who have gone through a lot of schooling etc. like Chris. A. I may be a Debbie Downer and I hope I am wrong.

I'm actually going to give that a go. I'm taking the graduate school entrance exam this fall. If all goes as planned I'm possibly going to start a masters program either at UC Santa Barbara or New Mexico State for conservation ecology and fisheries management.

 

[Cainschams]

I'm actually going to give that a go. I'm taking the graduate school entrance exam this fall. If all goes as planned I'm possibly going to start a masters program either at UC Santa Barbara or New Mexico State for conservation ecology and fisheries management.

Sweet!! Ive been thinking about going back to school myself. Id like to do something with the Appalachian Salamanders. Not sure what that would be but Ive been thinking about it