Chameleopatrick
New Member
Short answer, NO, Led's will not throw the heat required for basking.
The definitive lighting thread! Everything you really need to know
- Thread starter Chameleopatrick
- Start date
Short answer, NO, Led's will not throw the heat required for basking.
Swordfish9921
New Member
Swordfish9921
New Member
what size jungle bars did you get?
kodycorduan
New Member
Can someone post an Amazon link to an affordable uvb meter? is a uv meter the same thing? I found those for about twenty bucks..
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Since there was 36 pages previous to this with questions about lighting, I thought this deserved another bump. Hopefully this helps some members.
lilacdragon
New Member
Excellent thread!!
This is a most informative and helpful thread. Deserves to be stickied!
Kodycorduan - no, I'm afraid a 20 buck UV meter (as sold for sunbathers) is just a toy. I've tested several cheap UV meters - they ALL respond to UVA and NOT UVB and although they give you a "reading" of the UV Index, this is completely inaccurate for reptile lamps.
Their designers think they work, because they imagine that the proportions of UVA and UVB in sunlight are constant. So, the more UVB there is, the more UVB there will be.
This is NOT true, because as the sun gets lower in the sky the atmosphere filters out more of the shorter wavelengths, ie. more UVB is filtered out than UVA. So the UVA:UVB ratio alters.
This means that these little toy meters are inaccurate even in sunlight! (I had one which read a UV Index of 11! when my Solarmeter 6.5 said it was 3.3)
Of course, the ratio between UVA and UVB in most reptile lamps is different entirely from sunlight. So a toy meter is worse than useless.
The price you could pay for an accurate UV Index meter that would be suitable for proper lamp testing would vary from a few hundred to a few thousand bucks.... unfortunately.... but the little Solarmeter 6.5 is the cheapest reliable UV Index meter I know of. I now use it for all my work and it has been used in scientific studies published in peer-reviewd journals, too.
http://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html
This is a most informative and helpful thread. Deserves to be stickied!
Kodycorduan - no, I'm afraid a 20 buck UV meter (as sold for sunbathers) is just a toy. I've tested several cheap UV meters - they ALL respond to UVA and NOT UVB and although they give you a "reading" of the UV Index, this is completely inaccurate for reptile lamps.
Their designers think they work, because they imagine that the proportions of UVA and UVB in sunlight are constant. So, the more UVB there is, the more UVB there will be.
This is NOT true, because as the sun gets lower in the sky the atmosphere filters out more of the shorter wavelengths, ie. more UVB is filtered out than UVA. So the UVA:UVB ratio alters.
This means that these little toy meters are inaccurate even in sunlight! (I had one which read a UV Index of 11! when my Solarmeter 6.5 said it was 3.3)
Of course, the ratio between UVA and UVB in most reptile lamps is different entirely from sunlight. So a toy meter is worse than useless.
The price you could pay for an accurate UV Index meter that would be suitable for proper lamp testing would vary from a few hundred to a few thousand bucks.... unfortunately.... but the little Solarmeter 6.5 is the cheapest reliable UV Index meter I know of. I now use it for all my work and it has been used in scientific studies published in peer-reviewd journals, too.
http://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html
Last edited:
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Here are some example of readings that I took this afternoon in my back yard in Western Washington.
Testing area.
Direct sun
Shade
Heavy shade under multiple canopies
Testing area.
Direct sun
Shade
Heavy shade under multiple canopies
wtf?
A single t8 bulb does not put out enough light or uvb untill you pack in 3 or 4 of the 24" bulbs to adequately supply uvb and maintain plant life which at this point you no longer have any space on top.
The cost of this rout seems ludicrous, however... given the fact that you do not need to supply a lot of uvb in order keep your buddy happy and healthy... maybe it is better than I give credit and should have just stuck with what I had.
T5HO lamps suck poo poo, sorry to say... and produce a lot more heat than they are worth. Heat that is extremely difficult to set up an exhaust for due to the akward shape of the units. Keeping the temperature in the room stable is much more important that trying to grow plants so this method is not worth the extra trouble for me personally...
However to controdict that statement there are specially made t8 and t5 lamps that have a cooling system pre built into them, but the cost goes up infinitely.
I may be alone on this but I don't have and extra 200-600 bucks kickin around to spend on 2-12 lights in order to meet my needs.
I need one light that takes up minimal space, is easy to hang, easily controlled, capable of keeping my buddy happy and healthy and will keep my plants flourishing.
Over kill is a rude thing to say. Some people just don't believe that you can ever have enough light. I am one of them, that is until you are literally burning your skin and retinas just from being in the room.
I think OCD is more accurate but thats ok.
With the little knowledge I have about lighting and growing plants I do know that a single failure in ventilation could get the temperatures up well past 100 with any High Intensity lighting fixture and roast our little friends like miniature thanksgiving turkeys or turn the top leaves of your plants to dust... and there aint nobody got time for that...
so if you are not confident in your ability to figure out how to manage temperature then stick with the easy lights from the pet shop.
Any way, getting to the point.
Proper Ventilation and Adequate Light
In order to utilize more powerful lights there needs to be a way to exhaust the ambient heat created from the bulbs operation. Moving air quickly over the bulb and circulating fresh air into the room which is then passed over the bulb again is an efficient way to achieve this.
A single 150w HPS or 200w MVL is capable of keeping every plant alive and slowly but steadily growing in a 36x36x48 aluminum enclosure as well as supply all the heat, light and uvb your little friend could possibly ever want or need.
These lights are knows as HID( High Intensity Discharge) and are readily available all over the place. They are used for security purposes on buildings, lighting up housing signs and most notably street lamps and growing plants indoors.
Local flower shops will try and suck the money from your pockets for a "special plant growing bulb and hood with ballast" which I would suggest going against and instead getting a lower quality and lower wattage system because we are not trying to grow a giant room full of plants, you can cause a lot of harm to your delicate little creatures if you go crazy with lights.
Keeping these bulbs cool enough to use indoors is the hard part but thanks to whoever came up with the idea of a cool tube this is no longer a problem! You can find pre made cool tubes online and multiple videos of how to make one for yourself for pennies on the dollar. Well, less than 100$ at least, and save yourself the time and money in the future and buy a switchable ballast up from. Switches from hps to metal halide
Mercury vapor comes in a couple shades of blue that look the most similar to natural daylight and High pressure sodium has an orange sunset type hue similar to the fall which are useful in simulating as close to the real deal as possible. I suppose putting them on arched tracks that are timed to follow and mimick the position and color of the sun would be only a small step from that point though...
Anyway if you want to build your own heres a shopping list, find the how to guide on google
Materials needed
hurricane cylinder(s) 1 glass 1 plastic(optional)
1 piece of springy metal that fits tightly into the cylinder capable of suspending a lightbulb into the middle of the cylinder.(mulitple pieces may be required) wire coat hangers work great.
bathroom exhaust blower cubic feet per minute (CFM) is irrelevant.
alluminum dryer tubing
1roll alluminum coated tape (silver tape)
1 100w high pressure sodium or mercury vapor lamp bulb
1 100 w hps or mvl ballast, rated for 120v AC (important that the ballast is made for either hps or mvl as you will burn out your bulb if you buy them seperate and dont pay attention.
I personally bought mine from a friend that used to grow marijuana. and it still works great, producing excellent uvb levels for 2 years now.
woohooo
A single t8 bulb does not put out enough light or uvb untill you pack in 3 or 4 of the 24" bulbs to adequately supply uvb and maintain plant life which at this point you no longer have any space on top.
The cost of this rout seems ludicrous, however... given the fact that you do not need to supply a lot of uvb in order keep your buddy happy and healthy... maybe it is better than I give credit and should have just stuck with what I had.
T5HO lamps suck poo poo, sorry to say... and produce a lot more heat than they are worth. Heat that is extremely difficult to set up an exhaust for due to the akward shape of the units. Keeping the temperature in the room stable is much more important that trying to grow plants so this method is not worth the extra trouble for me personally...
However to controdict that statement there are specially made t8 and t5 lamps that have a cooling system pre built into them, but the cost goes up infinitely.
I may be alone on this but I don't have and extra 200-600 bucks kickin around to spend on 2-12 lights in order to meet my needs.
I need one light that takes up minimal space, is easy to hang, easily controlled, capable of keeping my buddy happy and healthy and will keep my plants flourishing.
Over kill is a rude thing to say. Some people just don't believe that you can ever have enough light. I am one of them, that is until you are literally burning your skin and retinas just from being in the room.
I think OCD is more accurate but thats ok.
With the little knowledge I have about lighting and growing plants I do know that a single failure in ventilation could get the temperatures up well past 100 with any High Intensity lighting fixture and roast our little friends like miniature thanksgiving turkeys or turn the top leaves of your plants to dust... and there aint nobody got time for that...
so if you are not confident in your ability to figure out how to manage temperature then stick with the easy lights from the pet shop.
Any way, getting to the point.
Proper Ventilation and Adequate Light
In order to utilize more powerful lights there needs to be a way to exhaust the ambient heat created from the bulbs operation. Moving air quickly over the bulb and circulating fresh air into the room which is then passed over the bulb again is an efficient way to achieve this.
A single 150w HPS or 200w MVL is capable of keeping every plant alive and slowly but steadily growing in a 36x36x48 aluminum enclosure as well as supply all the heat, light and uvb your little friend could possibly ever want or need.
These lights are knows as HID( High Intensity Discharge) and are readily available all over the place. They are used for security purposes on buildings, lighting up housing signs and most notably street lamps and growing plants indoors.
Local flower shops will try and suck the money from your pockets for a "special plant growing bulb and hood with ballast" which I would suggest going against and instead getting a lower quality and lower wattage system because we are not trying to grow a giant room full of plants, you can cause a lot of harm to your delicate little creatures if you go crazy with lights.
Keeping these bulbs cool enough to use indoors is the hard part but thanks to whoever came up with the idea of a cool tube this is no longer a problem! You can find pre made cool tubes online and multiple videos of how to make one for yourself for pennies on the dollar. Well, less than 100$ at least, and save yourself the time and money in the future and buy a switchable ballast up from. Switches from hps to metal halide
Mercury vapor comes in a couple shades of blue that look the most similar to natural daylight and High pressure sodium has an orange sunset type hue similar to the fall which are useful in simulating as close to the real deal as possible. I suppose putting them on arched tracks that are timed to follow and mimick the position and color of the sun would be only a small step from that point though...
Anyway if you want to build your own heres a shopping list, find the how to guide on google
Materials needed
hurricane cylinder(s) 1 glass 1 plastic(optional)
1 piece of springy metal that fits tightly into the cylinder capable of suspending a lightbulb into the middle of the cylinder.(mulitple pieces may be required) wire coat hangers work great.
bathroom exhaust blower cubic feet per minute (CFM) is irrelevant.
alluminum dryer tubing
1roll alluminum coated tape (silver tape)
1 100w high pressure sodium or mercury vapor lamp bulb
1 100 w hps or mvl ballast, rated for 120v AC (important that the ballast is made for either hps or mvl as you will burn out your bulb if you buy them seperate and dont pay attention.
I personally bought mine from a friend that used to grow marijuana. and it still works great, producing excellent uvb levels for 2 years now.
woohooo
A single t8 bulb does not put out enough light or uvb untill you pack in 3 or 4 of the 24" bulbs to adequately supply uvb and maintain plant life which at this point you no longer have any space on top.
The cost of this rout seems ludicrous, however... given the fact that you do not need to supply a lot of uvb in order keep your buddy happy and healthy... maybe it is better than I give credit and should have just stuck with what I had.
T5HO lamps suck poo poo, sorry to say... and produce a lot more heat than they are worth. Heat that is extremely difficult to set up an exhaust for due to the akward shape of the units. Keeping the temperature in the room stable is much more important that trying to grow plants so this method is not worth the extra trouble for me personally...
However to controdict that statement there are specially made t8 and t5 lamps that have a cooling system pre built into them, but the cost goes up infinitely.
I may be alone on this but I don't have and extra 200-600 bucks kickin around to spend on 2-12 lights in order to meet my needs.
I need one light that takes up minimal space, is easy to hang, easily controlled, capable of keeping my buddy happy and healthy and will keep my plants flourishing.
Over kill is a rude thing to say. Some people just don't believe that you can ever have enough light. I am one of them, that is until you are literally burning your skin and retinas just from being in the room.
I think OCD is more accurate but thats ok.
With the little knowledge I have about lighting and growing plants I do know that a single failure in ventilation could get the temperatures up well past 100 with any High Intensity lighting fixture and roast our little friends like miniature thanksgiving turkeys or turn the top leaves of your plants to dust... and there aint nobody got time for that...
so if you are not confident in your ability to figure out how to manage temperature then stick with the easy lights from the pet shop.
Any way, getting to the point.
Proper Ventilation and Adequate Light
In order to utilize more powerful lights there needs to be a way to exhaust the ambient heat created from the bulbs operation. Moving air quickly over the bulb and circulating fresh air into the room which is then passed over the bulb again is an efficient way to achieve this.
A single 150w HPS or 200w MVL is capable of keeping every plant alive and slowly but steadily growing in a 36x36x48 aluminum enclosure as well as supply all the heat, light and uvb your little friend could possibly ever want or need.
These lights are knows as HID( High Intensity Discharge) and are readily available all over the place. They are used for security purposes on buildings, lighting up housing signs and most notably street lamps and growing plants indoors.
Local flower shops will try and suck the money from your pockets for a "special plant growing bulb and hood with ballast" which I would suggest going against and instead getting a lower quality and lower wattage system because we are not trying to grow a giant room full of plants, you can cause a lot of harm to your delicate little creatures if you go crazy with lights.
Keeping these bulbs cool enough to use indoors is the hard part but thanks to whoever came up with the idea of a cool tube this is no longer a problem! You can find pre made cool tubes online and multiple videos of how to make one for yourself for pennies on the dollar. Well, less than 100$ at least, and save yourself the time and money in the future and buy a switchable ballast up from. Switches from hps to metal halide
Mercury vapor comes in a couple shades of blue that look the most similar to natural daylight and High pressure sodium has an orange sunset type hue similar to the fall which are useful in simulating as close to the real deal as possible. I suppose putting them on arched tracks that are timed to follow and mimick the position and color of the sun would be only a small step from that point though...
Anyway if you want to build your own heres a shopping list, find the how to guide on google
Materials needed
hurricane cylinder(s) 1 glass 1 plastic(optional)
1 piece of springy metal that fits tightly into the cylinder capable of suspending a lightbulb into the middle of the cylinder.(mulitple pieces may be required) wire coat hangers work great.
bathroom exhaust blower cubic feet per minute (CFM) is irrelevant.
alluminum dryer tubing
1roll alluminum coated tape (silver tape)
1 100w high pressure sodium or mercury vapor lamp bulb
1 100 w hps or mvl ballast, rated for 120v AC (important that the ballast is made for either hps or mvl as you will burn out your bulb if you buy them seperate and dont pay attention.
I personally bought mine from a friend that used to grow marijuana. and it still works great, producing excellent uvb levels for 2 years now.
Hi Reptarrrr
hmmm
Exactly what bandwidths of UV are you getting off that...?
And have you tested it for non-terrestrial UV B and UV C?
That would be quite important I would think... you know.... for the sake of their eyes
..... don't you agree?Any UV below 290 - 295 nm is cause for concern.
I would be interested in knowing it is safe long term before the final "whoo hoo" is given.
Don't get me wrong...I am not dissin'... and I love creativity,
but I have learned that there is so much more to lighting than first meets the eye!
And one must be extremely careful with UV Radiation.
I do think your opinion on HO t5 does seem to go against conventional wisdom.
Have you ever tried the Arcadia HO t5's?
They have been out in Europe for about 6 years and now there are many top zoos using them.
The wavelengths of UV A and UV B have been thoroughly tested and they give off no UVC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUu24MNO2Ho
Can you post a pic of your light set up, the description is ok... but pic would interesting to see!
Thank you.
Cheers!
Todd
Attachments
can I just say I love your backyard?
Here are some example of readings that I took this afternoon in my back yard in Western Washington.
Testing area.
Direct sun
Shade
Heavy shade under multiple canopies
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Welcome Reptarr,
I was interested in your post. Can I see your t5ho system where you derived your opinion from? My opinion (chameleon breeder and owner of 23 years) is just the opposite of yours when it comes to T5ho. They are some of the very best lighting available for chameleons today period.
It had observed in your first post about what "you need" several times and I personally think you should consider what a chameleon may need when it comes to lighting.
I have personally tested metal halide and HPS type lights and they do not produce the necessary UVB. Mercury vapor bulbs are effective, however they can be very finicky and have a high rate of failure. Due to the color spectrum, HPS lights look terrible for viewing your chams and offers no benefit.
If you can not afford something as critical to physiological and psychological health, then maybe chams aren't for you. I see people on here who post pictures of enclosures that are so poorly lit they can't even keep plants alive let alone fragile chameleons.
I was interested in your post. Can I see your t5ho system where you derived your opinion from? My opinion (chameleon breeder and owner of 23 years) is just the opposite of yours when it comes to T5ho. They are some of the very best lighting available for chameleons today period.
It had observed in your first post about what "you need" several times and I personally think you should consider what a chameleon may need when it comes to lighting.
I have personally tested metal halide and HPS type lights and they do not produce the necessary UVB. Mercury vapor bulbs are effective, however they can be very finicky and have a high rate of failure. Due to the color spectrum, HPS lights look terrible for viewing your chams and offers no benefit.
If you can not afford something as critical to physiological and psychological health, then maybe chams aren't for you. I see people on here who post pictures of enclosures that are so poorly lit they can't even keep plants alive let alone fragile chameleons.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
can I just say I love your backyard?
Thanks Todd. I hand dug that koi pond out myself. Would not want to do that again... It's a great place for a cold beer on a hot day.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Lighting.
Answers to your questions.
Maybe Ferret can keep this at the top? Some people have even suggested a sticky....
Answers to your questions.
Maybe Ferret can keep this at the top? Some people have even suggested a sticky....
Chameleopatrick
New Member
I have been using the Arcadia 12% Bulbs in my habitats for 16 months. The performance of the bulbs is very good. You DO NOT have to replace these every 6 months. My extoterra screen top blocks nearly 50 percent of the UV transmission using the T5 HO bulbs, but still after more than year they are glowing strong.
at 2"
at 6"
at 26"
at 2"
at 6"
at 26"
Video Master
New Member
Very nice! I'm using the 6%, but my guy hangs around the very top of the cage all the time so I think the 12% would be too much for him. If he could not get up that high then I think it would be different and I would switch to the 12%.
jmwhitel
Member
Todd or Chameleopatrick,
I am currently in the process of building a custom enclosure. It will be 36''x24''x48'' and acrylic. The top will be mesh screen. I will be heavily planting it.
My question:
I want to make sure the plants get more than enough 6500k lighting to promote lots of growth. So I was going to buy a 4 lamp T5HO fixture and put 3 - 6500k, and 1 - 12% uvb arcadia bulbs in it.
Similar to this:
http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaticL...xtures-AquaticLife-AK01035-FILTFIT54U-vi.html
So my question is.... will this be overkill? The health of the chameleon (ambilobe) is of upmost importance to me!
Thanks in advance
-John
I am currently in the process of building a custom enclosure. It will be 36''x24''x48'' and acrylic. The top will be mesh screen. I will be heavily planting it.
My question:
I want to make sure the plants get more than enough 6500k lighting to promote lots of growth. So I was going to buy a 4 lamp T5HO fixture and put 3 - 6500k, and 1 - 12% uvb arcadia bulbs in it.
Similar to this:
http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaticL...xtures-AquaticLife-AK01035-FILTFIT54U-vi.html
So my question is.... will this be overkill? The health of the chameleon (ambilobe) is of upmost importance to me!
Thanks in advance
-John
bradley
New Member
I have been using the Arcadia 12% Bulbs in my habitats for for 16 months. The performance of the bulbs is very good. You DO NOT have to replace these every 6 months. My extoterra screen top blocks nearly 50 percent of the UV transmission using the T5 HO bulbs, but still after more than year they are glowing strong.
at 2"
at 6"
at 26"
I use the same bulb above my reptibreeze cages and love them. Your cage looks great. I still feel people are too scared to use high output uv tubes and stick to a standard 5.0 bulb. In comparison a 5.0 is totally rubbish compared to these bulbs.
People still worry about using a 10.0 but won't hesitate to buy a 6% T5 HO bulb that most don't realise gives out more uv than a 10.0 T8.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
I use a six bulb T5HO fixture with the blue LED moonlights. It has a built in timer. It's the best fixture I have ever owned by a mile.Todd or Chameleopatrick,
I am currently in the process of building a custom enclosure. It will be 36''x24''x48'' and acrylic. The top will be mesh screen. I will be heavily planting it.
My question:
I want to make sure the plants get more than enough 6500k lighting to promote lots of growth. So I was going to buy a 4 lamp T5HO fixture and put 3 - 6500k, and 1 - 12% uvb arcadia bulbs in it.
Similar to this:
http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaticL...xtures-AquaticLife-AK01035-FILTFIT54U-vi.html
So my question is.... will this be overkill? The health of the chameleon (ambilobe) is of upmost importance to me!
Thanks in advance
-John
Mine is used for mountain species, so, 4 lights wouldn't be too much at all for a F. Pardalis. AND, I would highly recommend using 5000K bulbs over 6500K for the best color. I had to buy a case of 50 to get that color so I have several extra 36" tubes if you need a few.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
For the record, my Arcadia bulb just died. It burned bright for 6720 hours. About 16 months at 14 hours a day. Extremely high quality and longevity.
The UV output was significant all the way to the end. If you are in a a climate that doesn't allow daily natural exposure, then these bulbs are a necessity.
The UV output was significant all the way to the end. If you are in a a climate that doesn't allow daily natural exposure, then these bulbs are a necessity.
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