The difference between Ambato and Ambanja.

Kent67 said:
Texas Ranger said:
Well, last time I checked your thread title was "The difference between Ambato and Ambanja" and the first post said:



Didn't really seem like a picture sharing thread. As I've seen you give your unsolicited opinion on other people's panther locales (remember Chuck G?) on several occasions, even recently, it seems rather....I don't know what....that you wouldn't expect them in your own threads. Respectful debate is healthy. Censoring people who don't share your opinion is not. Just my opinion.
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Respectful debate is fine . I have no problem with that at all. And yeah I remember those threads and stand by what I think. others can think what they want that's fine but I was asked my opinion on several of those threads in the open and in pm's and they were also posted in general disscussion and most of those threads started by saying hey look at my cham what do you think which I did.
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Kent67 said:
Texas Ranger said:
Well, last time I checked your thread title was "The difference between Ambato and Ambanja" and the first post said:



Didn't really seem like a picture sharing thread. As I've seen you give your unsolicited opinion on other people's panther locales (remember Chuck G?) on several occasions, even recently, it seems rather....I don't know what....that you wouldn't expect them in your own threads. Respectful debate is healthy. Censoring people who don't share your opinion is not. Just my opinion.
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Also in reply to your other part of you last post yes that was the title and the best I could do to show what I thought and see was good indicators of the two and what I look for in the look I like comparing to wc and my cb .
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Respectful debate is fine . I have no problem with that at all. And yeah I remember those threads and stand by what I think. others can think what they want that's fine but I was asked my opinion on several of those threads in the open and in pm's and they were also posted in general disscussion and most of those threads started by saying hey look at my cham what do you think which I did.[/QUOTE]

sorry but i wasnt tryen start anything, but it is a public fourm stating you have a certin local cham but that you bought him from one known line but all a sudden hes from a diff line.. an that your female is a diff local then the dad is listed also.. then offer your opinion on others chams stating they are something because of a certin Trait then say rainbow chams dont exist in the wild yet if anyone looks at the pictures of gavin on there site theres gavin an ambanja looking like a rainbow..
Im sorry lee but your all over the place with this..
 
robmd1 said:
Respectful debate is fine . I have no problem with that at all. And yeah I remember those threads and stand by what I think. others can think what they want that's fine but I was asked my opinion on several of those threads in the open and in pm's and they were also posted in general disscussion and most of those threads started by saying hey look at my cham what do you think which I did.
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sorry but i wasnt tryen start anything, but it is a public fourm stating you have a certin local cham but that you bought him from one known line but all a sudden hes from a diff line.. an that your female is a diff local then the dad is listed also.. then offer your opinion on others chams stating they are something because of a certin Trait then say rainbow chams dont exist in the wild yet if anyone looks at the pictures of gavin on there site theres gavin an ambanja looking like a rainbow..
Im sorry lee but your all over the place with this..[/QUOTE]

No man you are just trying to find something wrong. Like I said I am not here to have a pissing war with yall these are my thoughts opinions and what I look for . Like it or not . And as for gavan like I said USA puts what I consider different cham treats in the same locale were as I look at it different and refine my lines to a look I like comparing to wc. Also in gavan man he does have a lot of color but no rainbow . What I would say is a rainbow locale is ambis because they don't just have blue,green or yellow background colors like ambanja they have all the colors background wise and bar wise meaning have you ever seen a red body blue,green,red bar ambanja? NO we haven't but we do in ambis. As for ranger and being a sokool line well all I can say is when big time breeders put sample sires up and say nothing you assume that's what you get but when I contacted them they pulled up ranger and sent me the pic of the sire and dam code/info and it was a male looking just like ranger. Also I.just found this out just a few weeks ago. And how I found out is I wanted a copy of rangers bloodline from screameleons on paper for my files. So as for ranger i got a nice cham and what I wanted even though sample sires confused me in what i was buying sire wise .
 
I'd like to clarify why I was compelled to make that post: One person says he doesn't think Gavan looks Ambato and gives supporting reasons and he's looking to cause problems. The very next post another person says he doesn't think Gavan is Ambato and gives his supporting reasons and "it's cool, to each his own." Let's move on.

I understand better where you're coming from, now, in saying you're trying to recreate the Ambato look even if that's not what the bloodlines are 100%. An interesting idea that I'm not real sure how I feel about. Ranger and Jr both fall into what I would accept/expect a cb Ambato to look like even if they have some Ambanja in them. In this case, like in the GTP world, calling them Ambato "type" might be more appropriate? You're still saying what the offspring should look like, but not committing yourself to saying the whole bloodline originated on the Ambato Peninsula?
 
Kent67;959567 I understand better where you're coming from said:
I have no problem with this. If we're all agreeing that they're still ambanja, but carry mostly Ambato traits, it's a win/win.

Lee has definitely created a very unique line and has consequently established a great following of supporters for this "Ranger" line.
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Kent67 said:
I understand better where you're coming from, now, in saying you're trying to recreate the Ambato look even if that's not what the bloodlines are 100%. An interesting idea that I'm not real sure how I feel about. Ranger and Jr both fall into what I would accept/expect a cb Ambato to look like even if they have some Ambanja in them. In this case, like in the GTP world, calling them Ambato "type" might be more appropriate? You're still saying what the offspring should look like, but not committing yourself to saying the whole bloodline originated on the Ambato Peninsula?
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That was my original intent of this thread you said it better then I could and the way I ment it to come out. I am not the best with words or what I am trying to prove but hope that i kind of get my point across as you seemed to get from the above post. They are all still ambanjas in my eyes and I love them all and they will be my favorite locale always. I just try to refine mine by different looks I see from wc. That is also a good why of putting it when I sell my ranger babies in the future that would be a great way for me to explain the look my babies should and may resemble.
 
Texas Ranger said:
That was my original intent of this thread you said it better then I could and the way I ment it to come out. I am not the best with words or what I am trying to prove but hope that i kind of get my point across as you seemed to get from the above post. They are all still ambanjas in my eyes and I love them all and they will be my favorite locale always. I just try to refine mine by different looks I see from wc. That is also a good why of putting it when I sell my ranger babies in the future that would be a great way for me to explain the look my babies should and may resemble.
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Ding, ding, ding!! I think we've got it! ;)
 
maxttu said:
Ding, ding, ding!! I think we've got it! ;)
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Yeah man . Like I said I am not the best with words on paper if I was talking to some one face to face it would make more sence ..... I think i need to learn to out words to paper better and explain my actions and thoughts better to were everyone gets it.
 
Texas Ranger said:
Yeah man . Like I said I am not the best with words on paper if I was talking to some one face to face it would make more sence ..... I think i need to learn to out words to paper better and explain my actions and thoughts better to were everyone gets it.
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I get you, bro. Keep poppin'' those babies out and we ain't got issues... :D
 
Very interesting discussion here.

It's too bad that no real academic work has been published thoroughly, assessing geographical color variation with this group of chameleons. Would make a great project.

Compared to some of the insect and arachnid projects I have been involved in, documenting such color variation would be a little easier than mapping setal hair counts and patterns in scorpions. Lol.

I think 'types' may be more appropriate, but obviously, there are a multitude of factors that make this situation difficult - that of which, I would rather not debate.

I hope to see some academic work in the future. I wonder if morphometrics vary across these locales in any way and if the differences are clinal (they must be clinal to some degree).

This kind of stuff makes life a little frustrating for 'purist', detailed 'labelers' like me!

Where is a dedicated phylogentic/evolutionary ecologist when you need one!
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
Simple fix really even though I know it sounds easier than it is. However it is coming from the Madagascar end of things. You have got to have good/ professional collectors that once collected their wild caught field specimens keep them separate from other locals. It is being done in Europe and it should be something that exporters are capable of doing with the USA (seemed more of a practice that was done in the USA in the past). Make that a standard of the industry and this nonsense of mixing locals especially the females is not acceptable.
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From another thread but applicable to a thought here. When you say getting accurate locales in the US was more common...I'd bet you're talking about prior to the introduction of the 2,000 annual quota? I have also noticed that after a couple of years of that quota the exporters realized we'd take whatever they sent and then buy more, regardless of quality or accuracy. 15-16 years ago you could find a flawless, fresh Ankaramy import. I was going to ask when the last time anyone saw one of those was but it's probably been that long! (Probably not, but sure feels like it) The point being, there's not really an incentive for the collection and export chain to change. Back when 10,000 a year were going out and there weren't so many large scale breeders there was more competition to sell imports. I did business a number of times with one specific importer here in the 90's who was getting what were supposed to be farmed panthers (clean and just big enough to be identify their locale) and his females were accurate, at least in my experience and a couple local friends. Ah, the old days....

So, back to Ambato. Having heard the "I ordered Ambilobes from Madagascar and got a shipment of Nosy Be's" story more than a couple of times I wonder if demand/interest/inquiry by the buyers in Ambato panthers would do any good (it definitely did with the last few years' number of Nosy Faly imports). It really would be neat to see Ambato imported more frequently and as a separate, accepted locale. At least often enough for larger groups to be set up by breeders. Thoughts?
 
Kent67 said:
From another thread but applicable to a thought here. When you say getting accurate locales in the US was more common...I'd bet you're talking about prior to the introduction of the 2,000 annual quota? I have also noticed that after a couple of years of that quota the exporters realized we'd take whatever they sent and then buy more, regardless of quality or accuracy. 15-16 years ago you could find a flawless, fresh Ankaramy import. I was going to ask when the last time anyone saw one of those was but it's probably been that long! (Probably not, but sure feels like it) The point being, there's not really an incentive for the collection and export chain to change. Back when 10,000 a year were going out and there weren't so many large scale breeders there was more competition to sell imports. I did business a number of times with one specific importer here in the 90's who was getting what were supposed to be farmed panthers (clean and just big enough to be identify their locale) and his females were accurate, at least in my experience and a couple local friends. Ah, the old days....

So, back to Ambato. Having heard the "I ordered Ambilobes from Madagascar and got a shipment of Nosy Be's" story more than a couple of times I wonder if demand/interest/inquiry by the buyers in Ambato panthers would do any good (it definitely did with the last few years' number of Nosy Faly imports). It really would be neat to see Ambato imported more frequently and as a separate, accepted locale. At least often enough for larger groups to be set up by breeders. Thoughts?
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One thing I have noticed recently though is that major panther breeders from Europe have got much more of a clue about what their wild caught panther chameleons locals are compared to here in the states. I think panther breeders here in the states should demand higher standards than current practices or the same quality standards that is seen in Europe panther imports from exporters in Madagascar. Why there would be a difference in standards between panther chameleon exports from Madagascar compared to Europe and the USA would be speculation from me (Europe being closer to Maddy or exporters not wanting North American breeders to easily establish breeding operations outside of Madagascar and allow a competing market? etc..).
 
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Great add to the discussion Motherlode. It is nice to get a long term individuals perspective on this. And yes, as with many other things, Europe is showing us up (and not just because they have easier access to exports).

Right on all accounts Motherlode. Thanks for adding.
 
Reading between the lines in some posts talking about it from the European perspective, I've come to suspect not all of the wc's are coming in with CITES permits, particularly to certain countries. If that is the case then they're not going through any of the same chain of custody.
 
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