Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
We are on that same Page . I really don’t know S*** . I certainly do not want anyone to take anything I say for chameleon gospel
. It’s just what works for my scaly babies .
The Naturalistic Approach in Humidity and Water Management Unleashed By: Petr Necas
- Thread starter jannb
- Start date
. It’s just what works for my scaly babies .I did a search and found this article written by Petr Necas that seems to refine/explain this hydration practice. I tried to copy and paste it but it is to large. So here is the link: terra-pets.de/download-attachment/94999
This is a quote from the article:
"1. Use fogger at night and make sure there is a significant night drop in the temperatures (not at
daytime!, on contrary fog at high temperature kills, as it promotes the growth of bacteria and fungi
and causes mycoses and respiratory disease that can not be kept under control neither through
UV not through natural ATBs contained in Pollen)."
Has the significant night time drop been defined? While a fogger would bring about some cooling of its own, I wonder if night time temps in the 70's are a suffiently large enough drop to prevent bacteria and fungi growth?
This is a quote from the article:
"1. Use fogger at night and make sure there is a significant night drop in the temperatures (not at
daytime!, on contrary fog at high temperature kills, as it promotes the growth of bacteria and fungi
and causes mycoses and respiratory disease that can not be kept under control neither through
UV not through natural ATBs contained in Pollen)."
Has the significant night time drop been defined? While a fogger would bring about some cooling of its own, I wonder if night time temps in the 70's are a suffiently large enough drop to prevent bacteria and fungi growth?
Here's my 2 cents. I think Petr's observations are priceless and will contribute a great deal to chameleon keeping. I have already implemented a ultrasonic fogger for a portion of the night in my cages. I based this decision on an experiment Bill Strand conducted and described on his podcast, where he weighed two chameleons, fogged one over night and left the other as usual. The fogged chameleon weighed the same the next morning. The unfogged chameleon lost a gram of weight overnight. It was a very limited study but I felt it justified trying raising humidity overnight and my montaines are one of the species Petr was observing when he started making these recommendations. It's too early for me to tell if this will be of benefit or not. So far it has done no harm. I would like to see if other people can duplicate his results. Mine are to small to measure accurately.
All that said I wouldn't follow this blindly. This is a great working theory but there are always mitigating circumstances that may escape the observer in the wild. If I hydrated horses like they do themselves in the wild I would only offer water once or twice a day instead of providing free access. I would miss the fact that while I feed dried grass, they eat food with a higher moisture content in the wild and end up with sick or dead horses. I realize this is an over simplification but you get the idea. Initially Petr was dismissing suppling water during the day but now I see he's added the use of a dripper and as long as free access to water is part of the program I can go along with it. I still mist during the day but mostly early and late with short mistings to allow access to water and I have my basking lights off during these mistings. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. I look forward to others observations as we go along.
All that said I wouldn't follow this blindly. This is a great working theory but there are always mitigating circumstances that may escape the observer in the wild. If I hydrated horses like they do themselves in the wild I would only offer water once or twice a day instead of providing free access. I would miss the fact that while I feed dried grass, they eat food with a higher moisture content in the wild and end up with sick or dead horses. I realize this is an over simplification but you get the idea. Initially Petr was dismissing suppling water during the day but now I see he's added the use of a dripper and as long as free access to water is part of the program I can go along with it. I still mist during the day but mostly early and late with short mistings to allow access to water and I have my basking lights off during these mistings. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. I look forward to others observations as we go along.
Remkon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Love these topics, they may be gamechanging...
We tend to follow caresheets and tend to stick to what's already written, that isn't evolution.
It's great there are people that have the opertunity to study these animals in their natural habitat and share their findings. The fun part is to make the habitat as natural as possible and figure out the technical part yourself.
We tend to follow caresheets and tend to stick to what's already written, that isn't evolution.
It's great there are people that have the opertunity to study these animals in their natural habitat and share their findings. The fun part is to make the habitat as natural as possible and figure out the technical part yourself.
Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
You have so much experience @Remkon . Your an amazing keeper . Have quite a bit of studying under your belt . Maybe not in Madagascar but you know habits , and would say have the technical part down .
How is the new job going ? This is probably not the place to ask but oh well
.
Remkon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Got this week off and then 3 more weeks resignation period before starting the new job.You have so much experience @Remkon . Your an amazing keeper . Have quite a bit of studying under your belt . Maybe not in Madagascar but you know habits , and would say have the technical part down .
How is the new job going ? This is probably not the place to ask but oh well
I'm looking to bring more randomness to reptile habitats... Like it doesn't rain everyday, it sometimes doesn't rain for weeks, how awesome would it be if we could bring that randomness (in a mondified way) to enclosures.
While back I worked on a arduino project to do exactly that in misting but never got to finish it.... So it's on my to do list.
Years ago when my male ackie still lived and got fed every other day like all the caresheets state he was a lazy fart, then I stopped sticking to a feeding schedule and he got to experience hunger makimg him much more active and alert... I stuck to that eversince and still today for my female...
I have a love hate with routines, they work for humans very well but they don't simulate nature at all.
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm curious about your two cents now though
.Have you seen bantam.earth blog on fb? Worth a gander if you haven't.
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes, thank you for posting @jannb. My experience with this has been with Odin. I posted an updated pic of him from last week in his thread this morning as an example of one being on this method for ~ ten or so weeks. He spent the first two weeks and two days at my office being hand misted. He did not like it at all and for the first few days would run even if I was misting away from him. He did come to accept me spraying through the top on the opposite side and then when I was done spraying and stepped away he would walk over and get some water. Though his urates were within the acceptable orange range Petr has said is normal, they were never white during this time.
After taking him home to finish out his quarantine in my spare bedroom I ran across Petr's post and Bill's podcast. I decided to try it with Odin since he is wc. I ended up ordering two cool mist humidifiers from Amazon because the first I wasn't happy with but his urates with in the first few days were finally completely white. Which according to Petr, is over hydration even though that is what we all strive to see in our samples. His urates have remained solid white this entire time since moving him to it. That being said, even though he doesn't like being misted in his cage, he does like the occasional drink in the maple tree from the sprinkler mimicking rain while he's in it for outside time. For me personally though, I'm pleased with the results I've seen with him enough I'm hard plumbing this method into all of my enclosures as I move them to bio active from bare bottom.
After taking him home to finish out his quarantine in my spare bedroom I ran across Petr's post and Bill's podcast. I decided to try it with Odin since he is wc. I ended up ordering two cool mist humidifiers from Amazon because the first I wasn't happy with but his urates with in the first few days were finally completely white. Which according to Petr, is over hydration even though that is what we all strive to see in our samples. His urates have remained solid white this entire time since moving him to it. That being said, even though he doesn't like being misted in his cage, he does like the occasional drink in the maple tree from the sprinkler mimicking rain while he's in it for outside time. For me personally though, I'm pleased with the results I've seen with him enough I'm hard plumbing this method into all of my enclosures as I move them to bio active from bare bottom.
Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
Me as well I started this method with Frances , Frances is now 4 we have had her 31/2 years , we Have been doing this method a year and a half . although she does have one extra misting , she has 3 long mistings with a dripper that runs always . Septiseye, and phoebe have always been on this method or similar . Their infuser‘s run from 12:00 to 4:00 Am . Septiseye and phoebe are hand misted Am/pm I put a timer on and hand mist till it dings . Frances is on the climist . I have lines to both Septiseye and phoebe but only run them if we can not get home . Which never happens . They all have drippers that run all day . Phoebe or Septiseye often join me at work as well . I will probably catch hell for saying that but that’s truthful . Neither Septiseye or phoebe have ever been sick . Septiseye we have had a year and a half and he will be 2 the end of the month . Phoebe will be 8 months the 18th of this month .
I will state agine I do not have years of experience . Do not take what I say as Chameleon gospel . I always check in with a senior resident
. My go to is @Matt Vanilla Gorilla and @jannb i have their babies. If they tell me not to do something I don’t do it . ( FYI I’m not calling anyone seniors either lol). Their methods always always work . The babies are now just heading out of their bins to the bigger condos. I have chatted with @Matt Vanilla Gorilla and he has given the Thumbs up to do the same with the babies . I will keep them with more misting throughout the day . They will be the biggest test .
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
Right or wrong, this seems the most natural approach to me, so I'm going to try it with my graciliors as I believe Janet is doing the same. If it works well I may do this method for all my chams. It kinda makes a misting system seem like an expensive extra if it's only used for two short meetings a day though...
Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
I will say Scott I do 2 long misting Frances is 3 2 being 3 min and one 15 . For you and me where we can water as needed maybe but so many can’t be home for misting or even travel . So a misting system is a must .
Septiseye and phoebe I can literally take anywhere . I own a business that is a 2 min walk from where we live . My son also is a tremendous help . For Frances she is so bossy and HATES EVERY THING . No one is EVER allowed to handle her . Strict RULES !!. Sh’s is VERY SASSY girl . The stress of having people near her condo makes her very angry , I’m the only one whom cares for her . We leave her alone , let her do what she wants .
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
I will still use both misting systems as I do prefer the automation. I was just amused because I only bought my second mist king last week and it will most likely no longer be the backbone of hydration for my chams. Now I need to buy a fogger. Lol
Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
Lol look into them . If you get the wrong one you end up with a very wet enclosure in the Am . I use a diffuser . It’s actually meant for oils . It works fantastic for enclosure. I put them on a timer .
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
I've been looking into doing something similar to what Dale Tamura did with his. My reservoirs wont be as large as his is though lol. I'm probably going to be ordering ocean mist maker foggers. At first they'll likely be on timers but I want to set them up on controllers in the long run.
Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
That will be awesome. You will have to make a thread as you go along so other can see how it’s set up .
When you buy your ultrasonic cool mist humidifier avoid ones with built in timers unless you like getting up at midnight to start them. Get ones that have an adjustable output dial to avoid excessive moisture. I also use a timer with multiple start and stop times so I can further adjust the volume of humidity.
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
We bought these and one will do two condos.
https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-U...011:2972984011,p_n_srvg_2947266011:2972984011
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
Nice, do they seem to be working well?
dshuld
Chameleon Enthusiast
I will for sure. Just finished three plant boxes finally this past weekend. Still have to cut the plastic paneling for the sides and mount them to the cages. I bought 1.5" lifegard low profile strainers for the entry points.
Definitely agree with this if you're going the "all in one" route.
The white and blue version of this is what I've had on Odin
. Definitely a better performer then the first one I got.
