The SAD Reality

[hbskeet]

Hello everyone,
My name is Brandon. A local Brev Breeders in Southern California. When I say breeder I mean breeder. I don't just have a 1.1-1.2 colony and accidently have eggs to care for. I love breeding Brev's. I run (3) 1.4 colonies and (2) 1.5 colonies. All my chams cared for properly and are on reguler scheduled diets. I have some regular buyers that come to me for CB brevs.

The SAD Reality:
-Many people decide to buy WC brevs because they are cheaper and more accessable. The SAD reality is that if this keeps up there won't be any brevs left in the next 8 or so years. Once they go endangered accessability goes out the window. Just like many other species of pygmies.

-WC: Most brevs sold are WC. They range from $15-25 each. When buying a WC Pygmy your buying a Cham that could potentially be near the end of its life. You will never know the age of your cham. You don't know if the cham has any health problems.

-CB: One may see stores offering CB brevs every once in a while. This is because A) they recieved a female that was gravid and it layed eggs while in their care or B) they got in a bunch that they stuff in a tank together until they can sell them but before they can get rid of them all some lay eggs. CB I guess you can call them that. But most of the time they are not planned and aren't care for correctly.

Please understand what I am trying to do here. I love Brevs!! I want people to be aware of the potential decrease in brevs in the wild. Remember and this goes for breeders of all species of chams, reptiles, or animals as a whole. REAL breeders offer QUALITY animals with in turn helps the wild species by not removing them from the wild. Although more expensive you are helping not only yourself by getting a better quality animal but your helping the world!!

Don't do it for me. Don't do it for you. Do it for the future of the species!!

 

[jdog1027]

Good post. I totaly agree with you. Humans are a greedy species, and as long as there is a demand, there will always be those willing to exploit chameleons for profits. Money is the root of all evil. I think that Jacksons chameleons fall under the same situations you mentioned. Raising chameleons from birth to an appropriate age to sell is a lot of work, time involved and expensive to accomplish. You go to the reptile shows and spend anywhere from $60-150 to rent a space and you ask what you feel the time you put into this worth, and the guy with the cage stuffed full of dark brown, skinny, sunken-eyed Jacksons 3 booths down asking $20 each is going to get all of the business. Reptile shows are a mecca for impulse buyers, and a good percentage of them will go for the cheap chameleon. They fail to realize that if they are serious about keeping it alive and healthy, they'll spend the difference in vet costs, medicines etc. and still risk it not recoopertating. You're exactly right,...- It's a SAD reality.

 

[adamkwas]

It is good to hear of someone breeding these guys. I like the message you're trying to put across, and I think it's true with most species that were readily available (Uroplatus and C. parsonii comes to mind).

What's sad is that I can bet of the thousands which come in annually, only a fraction are actually producing CB/CH offspring. Only when things become rare do people seem to want to breed them...

I commend you for what you're doing, because I can imagine breeding brevs isn't the most financially rewarding thing to do. I know that's true with most reptile breeding (aside from snakes), but particularly so for breeding a cham that's bought for little more than a couple dollars by the importers who are importing them.

Keep up the good work, hbskeet

 

[laurie]

Hello everyone,
My name is Brandon. A local Brev Breeders in Southern California. When I say breeder I mean breeder. I don't just have a 1.1-1.2 colony and accidently have eggs to care for. I love breeding Brev's. I run (3) 1.4 colonies and (2) 1.5 colonies. All my chams cared for properly and are on reguler scheduled diets. I have some regular buyers that come to me for CB brevs.

The SAD Reality:
-Many people decide to buy WC brevs because they are cheaper and more accessable. The SAD reality is that if this keeps up there won't be any brevs left in the next 8 or so years. Once they go endangered accessability goes out the window. Just like many other species of pygmies.

-WC: Most brevs sold are WC. They range from $15-25 each. When buying a WC Pygmy your buying a Cham that could potentially be near the end of its life. You will never know the age of your cham. You don't know if the cham has any health problems.

-CB: One may see stores offering CB brevs every once in a while. This is because A) they recieved a female that was gravid and it layed eggs while in their care or B) they got in a bunch that they stuff in a tank together until they can sell them but before they can get rid of them all some lay eggs. CB I guess you can call them that. But most of the time they are not planned and aren't care for correctly.

Please understand what I am trying to do here. I love Brevs!! I want people to be aware of the potential decrease in brevs in the wild. Remember and this goes for breeders of all species of chams, reptiles, or animals as a whole. REAL breeders offer QUALITY animals with in turn helps the wild species by not removing them from the wild. Although more expensive you are helping not only yourself by getting a better quality animal but your helping the world!!

Don't do it for me. Don't do it for you. Do it for the future of the species!!

You need to be offering these tiny sweeties for sale on the forum classified. Do you know how many members try to locate cbb (captive bred and born- for those who don't know)? It would be so nice for them to find them here.

 

[hbskeet]

You need to be offering these tiny sweeties for sale on the forum classified. Do you know how many members try to locate cbb (captive bred and born- for those who don't know)? It would be so nice for them to find them here.

That's my plan eventually. You can't post in the sales forums until your rep is higher. I'm trying to get mu rep up by posting important info but I dont think very many people are aware you can give people rep points for posting things that help them or info they like by pressing the little weight scale above posts. I have had a couple people inquire about them but they didnt want to pay 40 for them, plus as of right now I only have adults and some clutches incubating. I sell to locals and have some reptile shops wanting some from me.

 

[hbskeet]

BTW. Thanks for the support people!! I'm trying my best to make people aware. I don't really know any TRUE brev breeders out there but I'm sure they're out there.

 

[mickeyratfink]

Love this post, it rings very true wherever you live and keep chams in the world.

With the number of pygmies (and species) available wc, it is very unusual to see pygs for sale as they are not financially viable, when panthers etc etc lay larger clutches of eggs and fetch considerably more than your brevs.

I've been to shows, like everyone here, with R Brevs, Spectrums etc all around the 30 GBP price tag, not a lot when you can buy a rabbit for similar prices. I'm sure a lot of these wonderful chams go to inexperienced keepers who like the 'novelty' factor of these small creatures. In fact, whilst a moderator of a pygmy site based in the UK, its amazing how many times you get asked how to keep these creatures AFTER they have been purchased.

A case in point to agree and illustrate your fears of R Brevs (and not just limited to this species) is the availability of ANY Brookesia species in the UK. From memory, the last classified advert over here was about 3 years ago, for a species that were (at one time) reasonably obtainable. The same comment could be made of Bradypodions, Rudis, Ellioti to name a few.

Hopefully, more people will read this post and the forum in general, and realise what a delight pygmies (of ALL types!) can be!

 

[Shawntea]

Absolutely true. I have been on the hunt for my own brevs and the sad looking wc being sold are awful. I was very lucky that my local pet/feed store has a very knowledgeable pygmy guy who picked up a brev male for me in May. let me know when you do start listing them in classifieds, because I plan on moving up to a 35 gallon enclosure as soon as the hubby builds his paludarium.

 

[robmd1]

while i commend your breedin group i hope you are truely doin it for the love of the chameleonm because i have hatched out pygs an there wont be any money in it when the wc's are so cheap.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Unfortunately this is true with almost all species of chameleon except panthers, parsons & maybe cb mellers.

Ive seen so many ppl on here try to sell species that arent commonly seen in the marketplace. Invariably they end up having to wholesale a clutch that took almost 2yrs to get to saleable age. Ask Chad @ Tiki Tiki he's got a gorgeous clutch of Hoes he's had on the market for months. It just doesnt make sense though. You can buy cb and have some sense of confidence that the animal should be arriving to you in top condition. If your buying wc your rolling the dice. Even the best looking wc's almost always have parasites. Whether its filarial worms or pin worms or coccidia. And you dont know if the poor animals kidneys and organs are too shot before you get em to handle treatment. I buy wc but only to help diversify my blood lines or whenever I cant find anything cb that I want/need. Not to save $$$. The old expression you get what you pay for almost always holds true when purchasing reptiles.

I would love to diversify my collection into montanes. But it aint gonna happen until I have a facility large enough to accomadate everything seperately. I also dont want to be put in a position where I have to wholesale guys/gals because of lack of space. If I do two yrs of labor intensive work/love to produce beautiful offspring I want to at least break even on any project I get myself into.

 

[robmd1]

Unfortunately this is true with almost all species of chameleon except panthers, parsons & maybe cb mellers.

Ive seen so many ppl on here try to sell species that arent commonly seen in the marketplace. Invariably they end up having to wholesale a clutch that took almost 2yrs to get to saleable age. Ask Chad @ Tiki Tiki he's got a gorgeous clutch of Hoes he's had on the market for months. It just doesnt make sense though. You can buy cb and have some sense of confidence that the animal should be arriving to you in top condition. If your buying wc your rolling the dice. Even the best looking wc's almost always have parasites. Whether its filarial worms or pin worms or coccidia. And you dont know if the poor animals kidneys and organs are too shot before you get em to handle treatment. I buy wc but only to help diversify my blood lines or whenever I cant find anything cb that I want/need. Not to save $$$. The old expression you get what you pay for almost always holds true when purchasing reptiles.

I would love to diversify my collection into montanes. But it aint gonna happen until I have a facility large enough to accomadate everything seperately. I also dont want to be put in a position where I have to wholesale guys/gals because of lack of space. If I do two yrs of labor intensive work/love to produce beautiful offspring I want to at least break even on any project I get myself into.

Well said..

 

[hbskeet]

while i commend your breedin group i hope you are truely doin it for the love of the chameleonm because i have hatched out pygs an there wont be any money in it when the wc's are so cheap.

I know that's partially why I made this post. I've been actively breeding them for a couple years. But it's bigger than just me and my brevs. It's for all pygmies in general!!

 

[hbskeet]

ohh for sure Tex!! I really don't do it for the money. It doesn't cost much to breed brevs since I can house them in colonies. I just want people to be aware of the harsh reality. Plus the colonies I have look great in my house. Great pets that don't take up much room ya know. I'd love to get me some panthers or veileds but I just don't have the room in my 3 room house. one room I rent out to a friend one is mine and the other is my man cave with my chams an entertainment center. lol

 

[mphelps]

Great post. I have been worried for some time about the abuse of the wild population of brevs. Does anyone out there have any concrete data about the effects of importation on the wild brev population?

$15 per WC animal is criminal. It places no value on these creatures, and invites abuse.

Brevs are a wonderful pet chameleon species. One of my favorites. They adapt to captivity well and are hilarious to watch. Every effort should be made to maintain them in the hobby long term.

Thank you for your work for this species!

 

[hbskeet]

I haven't found any concrete data either. No real research is done with any type of Pygmy Cham until they can't be found regularly in the wild. Part of the SAD reality of Pygmy chams. Theres not much information available about any Pygmy Cham really. Most of it is the same info just worded differently by people that read the very few info that's out there. The info I offer people when asked questions are things that I have found that works for them. I always offer options to people that can potentially make them happier in captivity not the bare minimum to keep them alive. And thank you. I'm trying my best.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I agree with the OPs post whole heartedly - captive bred is much preferable to buying wild caught animals

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

Wanting facts and figures

This post and any other post needs facts and figures.

I believe the quota for brevs is many times smaller than the actual number exported.

I remember reading from a trusted forum member that even with the large number exported they are not in any danger due to exportation for the trade.

You really want to make a difference call some attention to the actual quota vs exported. You will make a lot of enemies if you ever succeeded.

Also no offense but having multiple colonies does not a breeder make. Multiple successful generations does. I have plans for cb brevs into multiple generations so I hope we can work together in the future

 

[hbskeet]

This post and any other post needs facts and figures.

I believe the quota for brevs is many times smaller than the actual number exported.

I remember reading from a trusted forum member that even with the large number exported they are not in any danger due to exportation for the trade.

You really want to make a difference call some attention to the actual quota vs exported. You will make a lot of enemies if you ever succeeded.

Also no offense but having multiple colonies does not a breeder make. Multiple successful generations does. I have plans for cb brevs into multiple generations so I hope we can work together in the future

True if everyone played by the rules. What about all the animals including brevs that are sold in the black market? In places like Malaysia, Taiwan and Thailand? The markets that you'll never see. Like the Brookesia perarmata that was always readily availiable until it was too late and they became endangered.

http://news.mongabay.com/2011/0619-h..._thailand.html

Ive been breeding for a couple years and have had many generations come and go. I normally sell them to locals sent to me from some of the local reptile stores in the area. When i first got into Pygmies I didnt know anything. Like a lot of people my first female was gravid and I never knew until one day I saw some babies roaming the bottom of the terrarium. I ended up selling a few of them back to the reptile shop I got them from. Over the years I have made many connections and have a few reptile shops sending people my way when they are asked for brevs. This is because they dont actively care them instock. I was heavy into breeding them and selling them but took a one year break when I was deployed to Iraq. Now that Im out of the Marines I was keeping two 1.2 colonies until I decided about 8 months ago to get back into it. Three of my males are ones that I bred. None of them are related. And half of my girls are ones that I have bred which are paired with males that are not related to them. Hopefully that helps with any misconception of my breeding colonies. thanks

 

[hbskeet]

BTW Josh,
I'd be glad to work with you in the future.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Breeding set ups

I'd be very interested in seeing some pictures of your set ups. Would you mind posting some pictures?