Think Lily's Poorly!

[FroggtheCham]

We had a herp vet give a talk to our group and though she specializes in Bearded Dragons, she told us there was no way that reptiles can catch pin worms from crickets. It will be interesting to see what Lily has. No offense to your husbandry skills but is there any chance she could have ingested her own feces?

I too would like to her the explanation on that. Crickets are carriers, of pinworms. So being insects, insectivores ingesting it would now become the host. Parasites are host specific, and their carriers are designed to deliver them to the next (intended?) host. As far as ingesting her own feces, no damage done (for parasite purposes anyway) if she is not infected to begin with. You have to either A. ingest the egg or larva (or bacteria can't leave those out!) or B. step on larva of a select few parasites. For they will bore through the skin. If she has had a very low parasite load, she may have been non symptomatic. Ingesting contaminated feces or crix that came in contact with feces, would have increased her parasite load causing her to become symptomatic. No matter how you slice it, she got it from something she ate.

 

[AJA]

I got a confirmation that cricket pinworms are different from reptile pinworms, and reptiles don't get pinworms from crickets. Now I know you guys aren't going to take my word for it, so I will have to contact the vet and site some sources.

Just to throw this out for discussion. When you worm livestock you worm them once, then worm them again in a 4-6 week cycle to get the eggs that hatched out in between cycles (because some eggs will take 4 to 6 weeks to hatch) since the wormer doesn't affect eggs. I haven't read every single thread on worming reptiles, but I am guessing that a large number of reptiles don't get wormed a second time, thus leaving any eggs that got missed the first time to hatch out and have a field day with little competition in the host.

The $10,000 question is where do the CB reptiles get the worms since reptiles don't nurse and assuming the herd managaer (whatever you call a group of chameleons) keeps the nursery clean. How are they being passed on?

 

[Miss Lily]

That's interesting. There is no chance that either crickets or Lily could have ingested any faeces at all. I cup feed and always remove Lily's poop/urate as soon as I see it. I've even been known to catch it in a tissue as she does it - I know when it's coming as she gets a funny look on her face (probably concentrating)!

 

[toddmkeller]

That's interesting. There is no chance that either crickets or Lily could have ingested any faeces at all. I cup feed and always remove Lily's poop/urate as soon as I see it. I've even been known to catch it in a tissue as she does it - I know when it's coming as she gets a funny look on her face (probably concentrating)!

Where do you get your feeders? What can happen is if say you buy your crickets/locust from a pet shop, and an employee is handling/cleaning an infected animals cage that has pinworms etc, and happens to get a small amount of feces on their hands, then grabs crickets to feed other animals in the store or to give to you and then all of a sudden you have parasites. If proper hand washing between each animal doesn't happen it is very possible that the main bin of feeders in a pet shop could house parasites.
There is nothing wrong with buying crickets from a pet shop, however I would recommend getting a fecal done at least once a year. Good Luck to you and Lily!

See Ya,

Todd

 

[eisentrauti]

Good aspect, Todd !

But there's one problem with the crickets and other feeders from pet shops: They get them from big feeder breeders where everything is perfect for them. But in the stores they often didn't even get something to eat or an adequate water source. So they are often like an empty chitinous exoskeleton. That's why you should always gut-load the feeders from pet stores

 

[gary1621]

Hehehe, you catch it?! That is so funny but completely believeable. Does Lily go to the same branch/spot to do her buisness?
Peanut, my dads little one does hers at 9am, almost on the dot on the same branch.

Anyways, I hope Lily and yourself are well this morning

 

[Miss Lily]

Where do you get your feeders? What can happen is if say you buy your crickets/locust from a pet shop, and an employee is handling/cleaning an infected animals cage that has pinworms etc, and happens to get a small amount of feces on their hands, then grabs crickets to feed other animals in the store or to give to you and then all of a sudden you have parasites. If proper hand washing between each animal doesn't happen it is very possible that the main bin of feeders in a pet shop could house parasites.
There is nothing wrong with buying crickets from a pet shop, however I would recommend getting a fecal done at least once a year. Good Luck to you and Lily!

See Ya,

Todd

Good aspect, Todd !

But there's one problem with the crickets and other feeders from pet shops: They get them from big feeder breeders where everything is perfect for them. But in the stores they often didn't even get something to eat or an adequate water source. So they are often like an empty chitinous exoskeleton. That's why you should always gut-load the feeders from pet stores

The feeders I buy always come pre-packed in tubs from the supplier to the store. I buy them on the day they are delivered and gutload immediately. I also clean out the tubs regularly too.

 

[Miss Lily]

Hehehe, you catch it?! That is so funny but completely believeable. Does Lily go to the same branch/spot to do her buisness?
Peanut, my dads little one does hers at 9am, almost on the dot on the same branch.

Anyways, I hope Lily and yourself are well this morning

I don't always catch her in the act but when I do I catch it, yeah! Saves cleaning it up off the leaves, etc! She has two poop spots that she uses depending on where she is in the cage at the time! Glad Peanut is settling in ok! That's a cute name too!

 

[toddmkeller]

Its just a possibility. Either way, you have it diagnosed now, and pinworms are easy to treat. I am sure you have went over this with your vet but you need to make sure that you wash all plants/vines and her cage after the last treatment. (boiling water/steam cleaning is my favorite method because chemicals aren't involved) I would also replace the soil if you have any potted plants. Once again, I wish you and Lily luck!

See ya,

Todd

 

[Miss Lily]

The vet informed me that the worms are called 'Trichostrongyle'. I asked if it could be something she'd eaten and he said that these types of worms are present, but dormant, from when the cham hatches and are passed on by the mother. Times of stress (such as laying) can be enough to cause an imbalance and allow the worms to cause trouble. I've never heard of these, but the medication she was given was Panomec injected into her side under the skin. She was also given another dose of Baytril. Panomec (I was told) is a very safe drug and is used in all animals from elephants right down to chameleons. It should last 3 weeks or so, and if things still don't improve she may have to be given another dose.

Edit: I have also bought some Critical Care Formula to give to Lily as she is still not interested in food.

 

[toddmkeller]

Howdy Again,

Panomec is a brand name for Ivermectin which is a dewormer used a lot in the bovine/equine/swine trade. I have no experience personally with it for the treatment of reptiles, however I have read about it. It CAN be highly toxic if over dosed, and according to my sources, it is not recommended (by the drug manufacturer) to inject it into reptiles. I have heard of if being safely used to topically treating mites. Strongyles (trichostrongyles) can be safely treated with fenbendazol (panacur) at 50-100 mg/kg safely. Fenbendazol is a much safer treatment and nearly impossible to overdose.

Now Im not saying that what your vet did was wrong, or even out of the ordinary, however I believe that the safer method is the way I would go. I personally use fenbendazol at 100 mg/kg to treat my chameleons by either injecting it straight into their mouth or injecting it into a feeder.

Here is a website that has some great information regarding treating reptiles for parasites and then some.
http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html#parasites

I hope this helps,

Todd

 

[Julirs]

Yes-we have all heard some bad stuff about Ivermectin-and personally it is something I would not use on a chameleon. Trichostrongyles are something you do not hear about in chameleons either-I have heard about them in turtles and snakes, and am not finding much about them on the web. No matter what parasite we are talking about here, stress+parasites equals a death sentence. Poor Lilly being overweight, having laid 2 clutches over 100 eggs, and I apologize but must say it, the constant holding and cuddling are all not helping the situation. I would cover the sides of her cage, increase her temps slightly, and leave her alone. Even if she does like to be held it takes energy she should not have to be exerting to hold on and to climb. I really hope you can pull her through. I was crushed when I lost my female at just under 2 years of age, but those clutch sizes can dramatically shorten their lives and this could simply be that. Please keep us posted-I think you are doing just about everything you can.

 

[Miss Lily]

Julirs, I do not 'constantly hold and cuddle Lily. I must emphasis that she only comes out when she climbs onot me. I have NEVER forcibly removed her from her cage. She's had to have some gentle persuasion in order to take her to the vets, but other than that it has ALWAYS been Lily's choice to climb onto me. I had no reason to doubt the vets decision to use those meds. I guess only time will tell. I was thinking positively that the worms could be treated and she would recover.

 

[Julirs]

Julirs, I do not 'constantly hold and cuddle Lily. I must emphasis that she only comes out when she climbs onot me. I have NEVER forcibly removed her from her cage. She's had to have some gentle persuasion in order to take her to the vets, but other than that it has ALWAYS been Lily's choice to climb onto me. I had no reason to doubt the vets decision to use those meds. I guess only time will tell. I was thinking positively that the worms could be treated and she would recover.

You have always made it clear that she wants to come out-I would never say or even think that your force her out. Either way, it is making her use energy she needs to fight the illness. But the picture of her with her eyes closed sitting on your shoulder just made me think she would be better off in her warm stress free cage. I don't mean to sound mean or insensitive, but if you keep these guys long enough you recognize the signs of things not being right. I truly wish you the best.

 

[NewOwner]

Sandrachameleon

Julirs, I do not 'constantly hold and cuddle Lily. I must emphasis that she only comes out when she climbs onot me. I have NEVER forcibly removed her from her cage. She's had to have some gentle persuasion in order to take her to the vets, but other than that it has ALWAYS been Lily's choice to climb onto me. I had no reason to doubt the vets decision to use those meds. I guess only time will tell. I was thinking positively that the worms could be treated and she would recover.

tiff,

I believe it was Sandrachameleon who has a chameleon who has/had pinworms.. you should talk to her, i forget what medicine she said she got for her lil guy. Good luck with Lily and i hope shes not in too much pain.

Btw, i just wanted to point out JUST how good this forum actually is, weve got 10+ pages of people supporting Lily! Thats absolutely AWESOME!

-Levi

 

[Miss Lily]

She's Gone

My poor Lily has gone. She went downhill after visiting the vet. She kept gaping and hissing through the afternoon. Then she was gone. I am so unbelievably sad, but I know it wasn't anything I did or didn't do.

 

[Julirs]

You did everything you possibly could, and you gave her a great life. I am truly sorry that you lost her.

 

[laurie]

Tiff you already know how I feel, somehow I just lost Lily too. I am so sorry this happened.

 

[Jakedn]

You gave her a great life, rest in peace Lily.

 

[turtleboy267]

I'm so sorry for your loss. You did what you could to help her