toads as feeders??

[Texas Panther Man]

Carnivorous...insectivorous...depends on what you consider "meat". To me the most important thing is, a cham is a predator that eats other animals, not vegetation (with a few exceptions). It's system is adapted to be fueled by animal matter primarily, not plant matter. And, insects are animal matter.

Imo, that post is incredibly dangerous bro. Some newb owner could read that and think its perfectly fine to feed lizards and pinkies to their chameleon. Which could be fine, for a short period of time. Until over time the cham develops debilitating gout and can no grasp or perch because of the severe joint pain and swelling. Then their on here asking "whats wrong my chameleon keeps falling?"

 

[Dez and Delilah]

Ugh.. please please don't feed toads to your cham. Aside from the fact that many toads are poisonous, they most definitely have parasites and being larger, probably quite a bit of them.

What reasoning do you have for wanting to feed toads to your cham? I can't think of anything aside from your own entertainment.

I'm sorry if this came off as rude but I really can't understand why anyone would do so.

 

[Carlton]

Imo, that post is incredibly dangerous bro. Some newb owner could read that and think its perfectly fine to feed lizards and pinkies to their chameleon. Which could be fine, for a short period of time. Until over time the cham develops debilitating gout and can no grasp or perch because of the severe joint pain and swelling. Then their on here asking "whats wrong my chameleon keeps falling?"

You've misunderstood me. All I meant to say was that chams are not vegetarians. I would never suggest anyone feed their cham lizards or pinkies for all the reasons we've been discussing the past day or so.

 

[pantherlover]

Ive never done this so dont jump all over me... But, how many of you think that larger species of chams could possibly prey on small birds or chics out of the nest in the wild more than once in their life? Ive had to shoo away more than one hummingbird who possibly mistook the color of my male for a flower. Every time he seemed more than obliged to shoot at it if I gave him the extra split second...

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

toads no but other smaller lizards, up to you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKEoho601E

or live mice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9CVBiDSqHo

fish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrcAJzJzRGY

fruit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByI48_MIU1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiiyWbLfsmI

You can also find tons of videos on YouTube of guys hitting other guys in the nuts for fun - is that good evidence that testicular trauma is good for them? I don't think anyone should be using YouTube for their moral compass...or to make any real decisions really...jmo. What an animal is exposed to in captivity may or may not be representative of what it will do under natural conditions in the wild - they're usually not the same.

Does it happen in the wild? Sure, maybe here and there, but vertebrates are not a staple of their diet and what they're eating are not plump little mice that are fattened up. They are NOT carnivores. Excessive animal proteins in the diet can and do cause gout in non-carnivorous animals. Seen it, studies have been done on it, end of story. (can you tell I'm getting tired of having this same argument over and over and over?)

This discussion has already been had: you can read more about it in the many threads where this topic has been beaten to death. Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. Just because you may drive drunk and make it home sometimes doesn't mean that the next time you won't kill an entire family for being careless and irresponsible. Same concepts apply. Make your own educated decisions from what others have said.

 

[james L]

It is a fact that some chameleon species do eat lizards, frogs, small birds, small mammals etc. They shouldnt be used as a staple by any means, but they do and should have a boned snack from time to time in my opinion. Ive feed veileds and panthers lizards before multi times with no problems.
Ferretperson, whats with the whole drunk driving thing? Same concepts dont apply.... Lizards before liquor never sicker

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It is a fact that some chameleon species do eat lizards, frogs, small birds, small mammals etc.

Do you have any field studies, medical trials or any other credible data that this does actually occur in nature And in what incidence to back this statement up besides your personal opinion in isolated cases in minimal numbers of animals? Looking for facts.

 

[VeiledKarma]

This face outta change your mind.

 

[james L]

Im pretty sure about every basic cham care book has mentioned this. Also here in south Florida we have two documented species chameleon (C.calyptratus and F.oustaleti) that consume large amounts of lizards regularly. Maybe you should look into the subject a little more. Theres lots of great info out there....

 

[Texas Panther Man]

You've misunderstood me. All I meant to say was that chams are not vegetarians. I would never suggest anyone feed their cham lizards or pinkies for all the reasons we've been discussing the past day or so.

I knew what you meant to say man. I just thought that the way you worded it made it sound like you were ok with feeding pinkies. Thats why i said it was a dangerous statement.

 

[james L]

Just picked up my copy of "The Veiled Chameleon" by Wolfgang Schmidt. Page 82 has a great photo of a veiled eating a leopard gecko. Then on the opposite page 83 theres a photo of one eating furry mouse....

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Im pretty sure about every basic cham care book has mentioned this. Also here in south Florida we have two documented species chameleon (C.calyptratus and F.oustaleti) that consume large amounts of lizards regularly. Maybe you should look into the subject a little more. Theres lots of great info out there....

Where is this info? Can you actually provide links or titles of studies proving this and the effect it has on their health? I am trying to look into this further...with facts, not just stories. And no one has been able to offer anything to prove their opinion that it is okay.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Just picked up my copy of "The Veiled Chameleon" by Wolfgang Schmidt. Page 82 has a great photo of a veiled eating a leopard gecko. Then on the opposite page 83 theres a photo of one eating furry mouse....

Not enough. I could go take a picture of this happening as well - doesn't prove anything one way or another.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Just picked up my copy of "The Veiled Chameleon" by Wolfgang Schmidt. Page 82 has a great photo of a veiled eating a leopard gecko. Then on the opposite page 83 theres a photo of one eating furry mouse....

"The New Chameleon Handbook" by Francois le Berre p54: "UV rays are high energy waves. In their presence the precursor of vitamin D is transformed into vitamin D3. However it was recently established that this photochemical process does not occur in chameleonids."

This book actually says to NOT use UV bulbs in this and the next paragraph. It's published and people buy it. Does that make it correct? I think we all know better and know that this statement is false.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just looking for real data and real facts because that's the scientific way to evaluate a controversy like this. If you can find real data from someone with credentials supporting vertebrates as a healthy option then I will back down. Until then I encourage everyone to question the source of any information you get and think about the concepts behind what you hear. The medical knowledge behind the nutritional aspects of high animal protein content in non-carnivorous animals is that it causes kidney damage, disease and gout. Plant and animal proteins are metabolized differently. This has been proven in iguanas with studies. This was done in iguanas due to their overwhelming popularity in the pet industry not that long ago. It's a shame is hasn't been done in chameleons for our sake but the concepts say it's a bad idea.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Just picked up my copy of "The Veiled Chameleon" by Wolfgang Schmidt. Page 82 has a great photo of a veiled eating a leopard gecko. Then on the opposite page 83 theres a photo of one eating furry mouse....

Thats an old publication. And there alot of areas of husbandry that have been improved upon since that book was first published. Im not saying you cant feed stuff like lizards and mice. My statement is "Ive kept chams for YEARS and never had any nutritional problems because of a lack of protein in my animals diet." And Ive bred & raised clutches of pardalis & calyptratus without feeding my gravid females mice. They laid just fine and recovered perfectly. what we're talking about is a high protein, high fat feeder. Great if you want to put weight on an animal thats skinny and underweight but my chams are healthy and weigh appropriate amount. So my animals dont need a high fat feeder...

 

[k9monkey]

Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

You are battling back and forth and completely missing the point. What you feed your chameleon is your business and you have to be comfortable with it. Same as what you feed your dogs, fish, birds or kids for that matter.

If you choose to feed things that may or may not be healthy for them, that is your choice and you have to deal with the longer term pros and cons of that choice. There are people who feed their dogs home cooked specialty meals and there are those who feed them the cheapest canned food they can find. Is one right or wrong, or is one choosing to take more precaution with their food selection? People feed their kids McDonalds 7 times a week, are they trying to kill their kids? I doubt it.

The point is no matter how many times you post this topic the answer will always be a matter of opinion. Yes chameleons in the wild have eaten strange things, but that doesn't mean they should or shouldn't if we are raising them. It just means they did in the wild. The best you can do is read up on the topic and make your own decision on what you will or wont do with your chameleon.

 

[james L]

Ferret, so your saying no boned animals at all? You know best?
Im not doing your homework. Give google a try... You will find some creditable something on the subject of chameleons natural diets. Try Parsons Chameleon. That should put you on the right track. Remeber there isnt just one way to care for a cham. Everybody does something a little different then the other (diet, supplements, lighting, whatever) Am I saying you have to use mice or lizards. No, Im just stating that larger chams do eat things like this and that it works for me. Also Schmidt is a creditable person, I would think years of reasearch means something. If I cant site him, who is there????

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I am not saying I know best. You are not offering anything to back up your claims however. I am merely saying that there is a difference between the fact that something can happen and whether or not it should happen. It is my belief that it is our responsibility as captors of these animals to do the right thing for them and try to recreate their natural environments much as possible. There is data from medical professionals to support that excessive animal proteins in the diet causes health problems for non-carnivores and there is no data to say that predation of vertebrates happens in the wild under natural conditions. The same way we know that mcdonalds isn't good for you. While it's true you are free to do whatever you want, you are capable of making decisions and choices for yourself with an understanding of potential consequences. Animals cannot do this, especially when we keep them in cages and expose them to things they have not been exposed to in their evolutionary advancement and thus may not be able to handle it physiologically. I am looking for some evidence either way to validate or disprove this theory. If you're going to argue that someone else is wrong then providing evidence to support your claim is the best way to argue effectively. It's not "doing my homework", it supporting your own viewpoint. I will see what I can find to support my own viewpoints as well.

 

[Ekaj13]

Im pretty sure about every basic cham care book has mentioned this. Also here in south Florida we have two documented species chameleon (C.calyptratus and F.oustaleti) that consume large amounts of lizards regularly. Maybe you should look into the subject a little more. Theres lots of great info out there....

Both of those are alien, introduced species. Thats not even close to being factual evidence.

 

[james L]

Well eating lizards helps keep these populations strong, healthly and reproducing. How is that not factual? Silkworms, superworms, crickets, dubias etc. etc. etc. are alien to chams but we feed our chams them. They live and reproduce just fine dont they? Introduced, alien, whatever there eating lizards and doing great! fact