Tongue is almost gone!

[ebclark]

Hello everyone, I am very worried and was hoping somebody could give me some possible answers. This morning when I went to feed Percy, I noticed he got much closer to my hand than normal and then he couldn't shoot his tongue all the way. After watching him go for a few more crickets, it looks like part of his tongue is actually gone! I'm including my chameleon care sheet along with a photo (this is almost as far as his tongue goes and you can see the bluer part which I thought was at the end closer to this throat.)

I fed him a hornworm the other day that was on the bigger size (but not substantially bigger than he's eaten before.) Is it possible the hornworm bit it off?

He is still able to eat, but it looks uncomfortable.


Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Percy is a male veiled chameleon who was born in December of 2018
• Handling - Rarely, I hand feed him but he prefers to be left alone, so I do.
• Feeding - I gut load my crickets with cricket crack as well as fresh veggies.
• Supplements - Reptivite Calcium without D3, on Fridays I rotate between Reptivite Multivitamin and Reptivite Calcium with D3.
• Watering - I use a mistking with a setting of about 5x a day for 1 minute each time.
• Fecal Description - about 60% brown and 40% white.
• History - He was born in a large litter of 48! I got him at about 4 months old.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen dragon strand cage that is 2’x2’x4’
• Lighting - Reptisun hood with Arcadia 12% light for UVB and 60W daytime heat lamp for basking in a ZooMed Porcelain Lamp.
• Temperature - The top of his cage is about 85 and the bottom is about 70. I have a digital thermometer with a probe right below his basking spot and an analog thermometer near the bottom of the cage.
• Humidity - Humidity is at about 70%. I use a mistking that turns on 5x at about 1 minute each. I’ve just used a little humidity gauge that sticks to the side of the cage
• Plants - A potted Sheffler Arbicola, a real potted pothos, and fake pothos
• Placement - My cage is in my bedroom which I spend about 3 hours in at night (after his lights are off) but it is empty most of his day while I’m at work.
• Location - I live in suburban New York.

 

[Beman]

Hi there I am going to give you feedback in red bold with additional questions. I can not tell from your picture the damage to the tongue.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Percy is a male veiled chameleon who was born in December of 2018
• Handling - Rarely, I hand feed him but he prefers to be left alone, so I do.
• Feeding - I gut load my crickets with cricket crack as well as fresh veggies.
• Supplements - Reptivite Calcium without D3, on Fridays I rotate between Reptivite Multivitamin and Reptivite Calcium with D3. Please post a picture of your supplements. If you are using all reptivite products these are a multivitamin with or without D3. So could be overdosing on vitamins. From what you said it is 3 reptivite products. So a picture would be helpful.
• Watering - I use a mistking with a setting of about 5x a day for 1 minute each time.
• Fecal Description - about 60% brown and 40% white.
• History - He was born in a large litter of 48! I got him at about 4 months old.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen dragon strand cage that is 2’x2’x4’
• Lighting - Reptisun hood with Arcadia 12% light for UVB and 60W daytime heat lamp for basking in a ZooMed Porcelain Lamp. Is the UVB fixture a T8 or a T5? 12% would be a high uvb output in a T5HO single bulb fixture. If you are using a T5HO fixture please give me the distance from where the fixture sits to basking.
• Temperature - The top of his cage is about 85 and the bottom is about 70. I have a digital thermometer with a probe right below his basking spot and an analog thermometer near the bottom of the cage.
• Humidity - Humidity is at about 70%. I use a mistking that turns on 5x at about 1 minute each. I’ve just used a little humidity gauge that sticks to the side of the cage 70% is a bit high for daytime humidity levels for a veiled. Typically you want 30-50% Is it an analog gauge or digital? Is it in the path of the mistking to where it could be getting sprayed?
• Plants - A potted Sheffler Arbicola, a real potted pothos, and fake pothos
• Placement - My cage is in my bedroom which I spend about 3 hours in at night (after his lights are off) but it is empty most of his day while I’m at work.
• Location - I live in suburban New York.

 

[ebclark]

Thank you for your response! I'm sorry I meant "ZooMed" calcium instead of "Reptivite", I've attached photos of the 3 products I use.

The output is a T5 and his highest basking branch is 11" away from the top of the cage. The light sits right on top of the cage.

The gauge is an analog gauge, but no it is not in the direct path of the mistking. For humidity I also have two sides of the cage covered in plastic.

 

[Beman]

Thank you for your response! I'm sorry I meant "ZooMed" calcium instead of "Reptivite", I've attached photos of the 3 products I use.

The output is a T5 and his highest basking branch is 11" away from the top of the cage. The light sits right on top of the cage.

The gauge is an analog gauge, but no it is not in the direct path of the mistking. For humidity I also have two sides of the cage covered in plastic.

Ok so with the reptivite with D3 and the repti calcium with D3. You are actually over supplementing D3. I would cut out the Repti calcium with D3 And keep the reptivite with D3. The Reptivite is your multi vitamin and D3. So you would use it every other week for a total of 2 times a month. Then at all other feedings you will use repticalcium without D3.

As far as the T5 what is the bulb strength your using?

Analog gauges are typically pretty inaccurate. I would replace with digital gauges that have probes.

What fresh veg are you using in your gutload?

I purposely avoid feeding large hornworms they have a nasty bit to them. Once you get bit you will understand what I mean lol. And if the cham gets bit then you can end up with issues like mouth rot from the bite. How is he doing today? are you seeing any red swollen places in the mouth?

 

[ebclark]

That makes sense with the overload of D3, thank you.

For UVB lighting - I use a T5HO 24W, 22” which I replace every 6 months, regardless of whether they’re still shining or not, just to be safe.

I have a digital thermometer with a probe for his basking branch but I will replace the analog humidity gauge and the lower thermometer with digital ones, thank you for this suggestion.

I gutload with a bit of cricket crack as well as dandelion leaves and parsley (always) and whenever I have it, I’ll put bits of zucchini, carrot, kale, and bok choy in, which I freshen up up about every 2-3 days.

Today he seems okay, though honestly he’s not socialized and always seems grumpy. Today wasn’t a feeding day, but yesterday he had to get very close to the crickets to get them, and it looked painful when he would eat.

 

[ebclark]

After writing this I decided to take another look on parsley and see it should be used as a gutload more sparingly, so I think I’ll just stop using that completely.

 

[Beman]

That makes sense with the overload of D3, thank you.

For UVB lighting - I use a T5HO 24W, 22” which I replace every 6 months, regardless of whether they’re still shining or not, just to be safe.

I have a digital thermometer with a probe for his basking branch but I will replace the analog humidity gauge and the lower thermometer with digital ones, thank you for this suggestion.

I gutload with a bit of cricket crack as well as dandelion leaves and parsley (always) and whenever I have it, I’ll put bits of zucchini, carrot, kale, and bok choy in, which I freshen up up about every 2-3 days.

Today he seems okay, though honestly he’s not socialized and always seems grumpy. Today wasn’t a feeding day, but yesterday he had to get very close to the crickets to get them, and it looked painful when he would eat.

Ok so for the UVB bulb. I need you to check and see if the bulb says 5.0, 10.0, or if it is an Arcadia 6%, 12%.. Each one of these effect the output of UVB. So if your branch is too far this can cause issues with the correct UVB exposure.

Here is a gutload list as well. I take this with me when I go shopping and it helps me a lot. I just wanted to make sure you were not using something like Spinach because it binds calcium.

 

[ebclark]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, it’s a 5.0 UVB.

I don’t use spinach, but thank you for attaching that sheet, I have that screenshotted on my phone as well!

Back to the hornworm... I know that they bite and I have worried about them biting him, but he’s never had problems with them before and enjoys them. However is it possible that one completely bit his tongue off? It looks like his tongue was amputated. Do you know if this will grow back at all? He’s only about 1.5 years old and I worry about his comfort and quality of life.

 

[NashansCamos]

Your husbandry looks pretty good so the most logical thing that I think probably happened was a hornworm bit it and it got infected. It could have been something else. @kinyonga

 

[Beman]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, it’s a 5.0 UVB.

I don’t use spinach, but thank you for attaching that sheet, I have that screenshotted on my phone as well!

Back to the hornworm... I know that they bite and I have worried about them biting him, but he’s never had problems with them before and enjoys them. However is it possible that one completely bit his tongue off? It looks like his tongue was amputated. Do you know if this will grow back at all? He’s only about 1.5 years old and I worry about his comfort and quality of life.

So I do not know about biting it clear off... If he had that kind of injury though there would be blood and swelling... It would be bad. I do not know if it grows back... But in the pic you posted I do not see swelling or blood. If you suspect there was an actual injury like that then a reptile vet is a good idea.

I have been deviating looking for other possibilities for the issues of him shooting it. Over supplementing with D3 can cause those kind of issues.

As far as the UVB though with a t5 and a 5.0 bulb you want basking to be 9 inches down. At 11 inches it is still within exceptable UVB range. Probably a UVI 2 at 11 inches. And you know to replace the bulb every 6-9 months even if it shows light right?

 

[NashansCamos]

So I do not know about biting it clear off... If he had that kind of injury though there would be blood and swelling... It would be bad. I do not know if it grows back... But in the pic you posted I do not see swelling or blood. If you suspect there was an actual injury like that then a reptile vet is a good idea.

I have been deviating looking for other possibilities for the issues of him shooting it. Over supplementing with D3 can cause those kind of issues.

As far as the UVB though with a t5 and a 5.0 bulb you want basking to be 9 inches down. At 11 inches it is still within exceptable UVB range. Probably a UVI 2 at 11 inches. And you know to replace the bulb every 6-9 months even if it shows light right?

Do you think it could have been a minor bite that got infected?

 

[Beman]

Do you think it could have been a minor bite that got infected?

possible... But in the image it does not show the typical signs of injury. No swelling and no redness. So until there are additional images I am not certain that is the cause of him having issues shooting his tongue. From that image I do not even see what the OP meant by part of the tongue being gone. IMO it looks normal.

 

[NashansCamos]

Maybe because it sort of off to the side...? more photos would be great! thanks

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post more photos of the tongue please.
From what I can see in the photo you posted already the tongue is still there. It may not be able to be shot out...but it looks like it's all there.

Tongues do not regrow.

If it's all there and he just can't shoot it out them i could be a nutritional thing..or an injury...or an infection ...or even something else.

If I'm wrong and the tip is missing, then chances are he won't be able to drag insects back into his mouth and it might have to b amputated. You will definitely need a vet for that.

 

[CrisBruns]

I have heard of injured tongues from hornworms from the tongue having to pull so hard to dislodge the hornworm from where it is sitting. Those bigger ones can have a pretty strong grip.

 

[ebclark]

So I do not know about biting it clear off... If he had that kind of injury though there would be blood and swelling... It would be bad. I do not know if it grows back... But in the pic you posted I do not see swelling or blood. If you suspect there was an actual injury like that then a reptile vet is a good idea.

I have been deviating looking for other possibilities for the issues of him shooting it. Over supplementing with D3 can cause those kind of issues.

As far as the UVB though with a t5 and a 5.0 bulb you want basking to be 9 inches down. At 11 inches it is still within exceptable UVB range. Probably a UVI 2 at 11 inches. And you know to replace the bulb every 6-9 months even if it shows light right?

Yes, I said before that I change the light every 6 months regardless if it's still shining or not, just to be safe. There is no swelling or blood, he is eating now and I will post more pictures soon. I have also made a vet appointment for tomorrow (he specializes in exotic pets.)

I will raise his basking branch a few inches though, thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Beman]

Yes, I said before that I change the light every 6 months regardless if it's still shining or not, just to be safe. There is no swelling or blood, he is eating now and I will post more pictures soon. I have also made a vet appointment for tomorrow (he specializes in exotic pets.)

I will raise his basking branch a few inches though, thank you for the suggestion.

ok sorry about that... I just like to double check everything so I do not miss anything. Let use know what the vet says.

 

[ebclark]

Maybe because it sort of off to the side...? more photos would be great! thanks

Here is an additional photo of his feeding today (sorry it's difficult to get.) It looks like the sticky ball at the end is gone. The reason I say this is because the end is not rounded around the ball anymore, but it's more of a blunt ending.

I could be wrong, but when I have watched him feed before, the bluer section (what I suspect are his blood vessels) is usually near his throat and is only shown when he shoots very far, but now it's closer to the end.

He is also eating much slower, usually I will hand feed him two or three and let the rest go in his cage for him to hunt. He normally goes after them all in about 10 minutes, but now he's resting much longer after each cricket, and when he pulls it into his mouth (he is still able to catch and pull them in) he takes longer chewing, as if it's uncomfortable for him.

 

[NashansCamos]

Here is an additional photo of his feeding today (sorry it's difficult to get.) It looks like the sticky ball at the end is gone. The reason I say this is because the end is not rounded around the ball anymore, but it's more of a blunt ending.

I could be wrong, but when I have watched him feed before, the bluer section (what I suspect are his blood vessels) is usually near his throat and is only shown when he shoots very far, but now it's closer to the end.

He is also eating much slower, usually I will hand feed him two or three and let the rest go in his cage for him to hunt. He normally goes after them all in about 10 minutes, but now he's resting much longer after each cricket, and when he pulls it into his mouth (he is still able to catch and pull them in) he takes longer chewing, as if it's uncomfortable for him.

Yeah I see what you mean- I would go the vet and get it checked out

 

[Beman]

Here is an additional photo of his feeding today (sorry it's difficult to get.) It looks like the sticky ball at the end is gone. The reason I say this is because the end is not rounded around the ball anymore, but it's more of a blunt ending.

I could be wrong, but when I have watched him feed before, the bluer section (what I suspect are his blood vessels) is usually near his throat and is only shown when he shoots very far, but now it's closer to the end.

He is also eating much slower, usually I will hand feed him two or three and let the rest go in his cage for him to hunt. He normally goes after them all in about 10 minutes, but now he's resting much longer after each cricket, and when he pulls it into his mouth (he is still able to catch and pull them in) he takes longer chewing, as if it's uncomfortable for him.

Yeah it is flatter... It is good you have the appointment set up. Let us know what they say. I hope he feels better soon!