Transitioning to a full UVB system with no Dietary D3

DeremensisBlue

DeremensisBlue

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I wanted to open up a discussion as to whether anyone here has been experimenting with getting D3 from UVB only. Most recommendations have some sort of balance between UVB and D3 in the supplementations.

I have been using the Arcadia EarthPro-A supplement or simply bee pollen and calcium crushed together as my daily supplements and adding no D3. I have been using UVB at UVI 3 and it seems to be working.
My experiments were preceded by an experiment by Pete Hawkins where he got successful calcified eggs from a female veiled chameleon under UVI 3 and no D3. Well, it worked for me too, and now I am dealing with a bunch of bundles of green veiled chameleon joy.

So, has anyone else been working with UVB only? We all intellectually know the UVB should work, but it seems few of us trust it and we want to have the dietary back-up.

If you'd like to hear me and Pete talking about his project then you can listen to episode 131 of the Chameleon Breeder Podcast on your podcast app, the dedicated iPhone Chameleon Breeder app, or right here within the Chameleon Forums!

Ep 131: Making UVB Work For Chameleons with Pete Hawkins
 
I had Beman on no D3 supplementation only using arcadia supplements from the time I got him at 5 months until he was 12 months old with D3 from UVB light running arcadia 12% basking sitting at a 3-4 UVI. But I did not know how to supplement Vitamin A. This took me down a rather confusing path then causing me to switch to repashy calcium plus LoD for an all in one supplement since Arcadia did not have a supplement that included Vitamin A. He is extremely healthy and no MBD but is now on a diet due to being to fat.
 
I do not own a solarmeter 6.5 do to the fact that I'm a simple hobbiest and I honor my marriage lol. If I told my wife I spent $200 on a tool that measures light she'd probably divorce me. Trust me I asked once! I got the dreaded eye roll. Bill I think you know what I'm talking about lol. However I listen to your podcast religiously and have followed yours and John Courtney Smiths advice and have my boys under a single 6% Arcadia T5HO with reflector and give my boys access to it from 12-10" under the bulb. Because of this I do Use Calcium D3 once every 3 weeks. Instead of the recommended once every 2 weeks.

I will add my boys are kept indoors all year. And they are given 1-3hrs of outdoor time a week in the summer. Living in Southern Colorado the UVI in direct sun is around 10 everyday so I try to give them shade. It's also around 90-100* by midday so they would bake without the shade anyways. Obviously winters are too cold for outside time.
 
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I can't see why it shouldn't be possible....I've just never tried it because what I've been doing with supplementing and using UVB reptisun 5.0 long linear tubes has worked. I don't like changing what works usually. I'm glad to hear you're having success with it @DeremensisBlue
 
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DeremensisBlue said:
I wanted to open up a discussion as to whether anyone here has been experimenting with getting D3 from UVB only. Most recommendations have some sort of balance between UVB and D3 in the supplementations.

I have been using the Arcadia EarthPro-A supplement or simply bee pollen and calcium crushed together as my daily supplements and adding no D3. I have been using UVB at UVI 3 and it seems to be working.
My experiments were preceded by an experiment by Pete Hawkins where he got successful calcified eggs from a female veiled chameleon under UVI 3 and no D3. Well, it worked for me too, and now I am dealing with a bunch of bundles of green veiled chameleon joy.

So, has anyone else been working with UVB only? We all intellectually know the UVB should work, but it seems few of us trust it and we want to have the dietary back-up.

If you'd like to hear me and Pete talking about his project then you can listen to episode 131 of the Chameleon Breeder Podcast on your podcast app, the dedicated iPhone Chameleon Breeder app, or right here within the Chameleon Forums!

Ep 131: Making UVB Work For Chameleons with Pete Hawkins
Click to expand...
I’m in the midst of a test. I have three veileds—two females, and one male. I’m using no d3 for one female. My lights are set up a bit differently from the norm, though. Because they each have such large enclosures with several basking areas in each, I use two bulbs over each. The first is an Arcadia 6% (t5), which is located on the eastern side of the enclosure, and runs 7 am to 4pm. The second is also an Arcadia, but a 12%. This latter bulb is located on the west side of the cage, and runs 12 pm to 7 pm. My morning uvi levels are their typical warm up spots on the eastern side of the cage are approx 3. By noon the central basking sites hit 6 - 7, and then by 6 pm, the western perches are back down to 3.
 
Further to my last,

I’ve been using Calcium plus LoD for one female and the male, and a no d3 regime for the other female. Obviously it’ll be a long time before I can even pin down a data point, but we’ll see. I have to admit, however, that the calcium plus LoD routine is far simpler than the noD routine, as the latter requires several supplements in varying amounts and schedules. I’d love it if repashy could come up with a Calcium Plus NoD—one which had all the same ingredients as LoD, but without D3. Of course, this would throw the balance of the other co-dependent vitamins out of whack. Gosh, I wish I had the gumption to use plain calcium dust, and rely only on my gutload ingredients, and uvb setup, but alas, I’m chicken.
 
Sticky tongue farms as 2 formulas, outdoor with no D3, and indoor that has the lowest amount of D3 in the industry, but its also for every dusting, not "D3 days". This formula has worked for a few decades, it hasnt been adjusted since the zoomed T8 5.0 came out.

Saying that, increasing your UVB levels to 10x-20x what the old 1990's bulbs were putting out, should remove the need for D3. Infact we keep having cases of edema coming up, because people are using the High power bulbs, and the medium strength D3 supplements.

If you are using at T5HO, I would not go above the repashy calcium plus LoD, which is the second lowest in the industry.

RepCal D3+ 400,000 IU/kg
Flukers Reptacalcium 100,000 IU/lb
Exoterra 14,740 IU/lb
ZooMed ReptiCalcium 22,907 IU/kg
Mineral -indoor 2000ui per kg
Repashy calcium plus LoD 8,000 IU/lb

I dont have the time right now to convert kg to lbs, but just pretend that the 8,000 IU/lb is 20,000 ui/kg
 
@Kaizen said..."Gosh, I wish I had the gumption to use plain calcium dust, and rely only on my gutload ingredients, and uvb setup, but alas, I’m chicken"....it's not that hard. I've been doing it for years.
 
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Again, it’s about gumption. I’m far greener than you, and it’ll take many more years of messing up and learning before I have your wisdom and the confidence that arises therefrom.
 
@KobaOregonherper, remind me what species you have. With the bulletproofs like veileds and panthers, it’s hard to see the effects of over supplementation because they seem not to get ‘edema-y’ as easily as montagnes. Indeed kamerflage uses regular calcium plus for all their chams...at least that’s what I hear. I’m interested in hearing about your observations.
 
kinyonga said:
What signs of overdoing the D3 were you seeing @KobaOregonherper ?
Click to expand...

Kaizen said:
@KobaOregonherper, remind me what species you have. With the bulletproofs like veileds and panthers, it’s hard to see the effects of over supplementation because they seem not to get ‘edema-y’ as easily as montagnes. Indeed kamerflage uses regular calcium plus for all their chams...at least that’s what I hear. I’m interested in hearing about your observations.
Click to expand...

I noticed rigid movements that he had never previously displayed. A bit ago he had an issue with his tongue not fully extending so I took him to the vet and they noticed calcium deposits around the tongue. Nothing super crazy, he was fine, eating fine, drinking, no parasites etc. I backed off the d3 and symptoms went away. Im still unsure that it was solely the d3, could have been a vitamin A issue. I unfortunately dont know any vets in the area that are experts on Chameleons lol.

Edit: just your standard ambilobe panther.
 
We have recently started with the program of no D3. We have been using Arcadia supplements for almost two years.
We check our UVB levels monthly to ensure levels are adequate.
 
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