Transvaalense tongue falling out

[laurie]

I have a problem with my female B. transvaalense. Twice yesterday and twice today her tongue has just fallen out of her mouth. It is not all the way extended rather it comes out about an inch to and inch and a half. As far as I know she only does this when I am spraying her and she is drinking. I have never seen it at any other time, but I can't be sure it hasn't happened. Does anyone have background with this or know what could cause it? Might be good to mention she was upside drinking each time it happened

Here are pictures taken today but I could not capture the tongue out.
close up

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distance shot

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[showjet95]

Not to go off topic, but she looks so small! Both of my females from the same import look double her size.
How many times a day are you misting and for how long? Does she have a basking spot?

 

[Olimpia]

Mine was still small as well. When we opened her up she seemed to have a really small heart in proportion to her size. We don't have anyone else to compare her heart to but it looked abnormally small.

Laurie, I don't know why she would be doing this! An injury maybe?

 

[Hoj]

She looks not bad to me. But I am less than useless with the trans.
I hope someone else can chime in with some info.
Get better Sophia. Your mommy worries.

 

[sandrachameleon]

nothing useful to add beyond positive thoughts.

 

[laurie]

Not to go off topic, but she looks so small! Both of my females from the same import look double her size.
How many times a day are you misting and for how long? Does she have a basking spot?[/QUOTE
Yes she has a basking spot, her mist king is on 3 times a day for 30 sec, I also hand mist her ever day as she likes to drink.

Mine was still small as well. When we opened her up she seemed to have a really small heart in proportion to her size. We don't have anyone else to compare her heart to but it looked abnormally small.

Laurie, I don't know why she would be doing this! An injury maybe?

I guess it could be an injury, but nothing I know of. She is still tiny, so is Hans. Really makes me wonder what is wrong with all the ones that have been lost. None of them seem to be growing except Paul's . Sophia weights 4 grams and Hans weights 5 grams. I know it sounds awful but the amount of stress and the % of them that have died? I will never have the guts to try this again.

 

[Olimpia]

I wonder if we got a bad batch of them. Like chocolate, the Europeans save the best stuff for themselves and send the grade B stuff here for the Americans since we don't know better. It's not normal for them not to grow when we're doing everything correctly, or to just drop dead. If mine had a small heart as a birth deformity I have to wonder how many else have/had it too. It was a liver infection that killed my female but who knows if the heart was keeping her from growing.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

I dont think thats the case... Personally im still leaning toward husbandry, something were probably missing, or some are ignoring. If that were true, that would mean every import for the past 5 years were all bad.. I highly doubt thats the case...

All but one of mine have done well so far, and one other case was likely due to some sort of bite.

Out of everyone, Paul has kept his outside more than anyone. And from the breeders i have talked to that helps a lot for growth. How or why? No idea..


Laurie, i wish i could offer some for of help but i have no clue..


On a side note, I think taking a shot at our fellow, more experienced keepers/breeders was a bit uncalled for. Many of them have been kind enough to share their experiences and attempt to help us out.

 

[showjet95]

If we got a bad batch or batches, mine wouldnt be growing and would be dropping dead. All of mine are growing steadily. My 2 female transvaalense I got from that import are 10g and 11g. At the age they arrived and I shipped them all out, theres no way I can differentiate any significant differences between any of them, they are all pretty much the exact same size and have the same markings. I feed them daily, I always try and mix it up from day to day with what I feed. 2 week old crickets, hydei fruit flies, bean beetles, bb and house flies. I only mist them enough to get the foliage wet and THATS IT, thats all they need. I keep some individually and some in pairs. I keep them all with ficus, pothos, fern palm? and aralia along with lots of climbing branches. I can post pics of my set ups if anyone wants to see? The only difference that I know for a fact the European keepers do that we dont, is that they use HID lighting or Metal Halide.

 

[Trace]

...and one other case was likely due to some sort of bite.

To my knowledge there was only been one necropsy done on any of the dead Bradys from the first shipment and to assume the death came as a result of an insect bite is wrong.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

To my knowledge there was only been one necropsy done on any of the dead Bradys from the first shipment and to assume the death came as a result of an insect bite is wrong.

Maybe I am wrong, but what better do we have to go on? The results of one necropsy out of dozens of bradypodion doesnt say much imo.

Id like to know the issue just as much, if not more than anyone since i have one of the largest groups.... But to assume that the europeans are sending us junk is just as much of a farce as assuming an insect bite then..

 

[Trace]

I don't want to get off topic but that is why you guys need to have necropies done if they die unexpectedly. The group spent so much money and effort to get them imported that it only benefits the original group and the new Brady group as a whole to find out the real reasons why.

Laurie I hope you find the reason for the tongue issue.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't think any of us are not doing the same things. I live in Florida, where it hasn't gotten below 60F all winter and they've been outside weeks at a time. So sunshine, check. Nighttime drop in temperature, check. Variety of food in the shape of baby superworms, crickets, flies, banana roaches, discoids, cave roaches, suriname roaches, check. All properly gutloaded with fresh fruits, veggies, and commercial gutloads containing superfoods, check. One short misting in the morning and a quick spritz in the evening, with humidity staying "low" (<25%) on the hydrometer all day.

So what are we doing/not doing that our females are either staying small or dropping dead? Laurie certainly has experience with fragile chameleons. I'm not inexperienced either. And when we performed a necropsy on my girl (with a reptile vet) we noted that her heart seemed really small. Now, I'm just stating that something is off. We have nothing to compare her heart to because no one else performed a necropsy on their dead imports, but we have photos beside a measuring tape if anyone wants to see. If it is abnormal, and it is something she was born with, then it has nothing to do with husbandry. And it's sensible to wonder how many more had/have something going on we can't see.

It's not taking a shot, it's being objective. If we can't honestly discuss why we think we're failing then we're not doing ourselves a favor. I'm not out to hurt feelings, but if everyone prefers to be hush-hush about their deaths to look better or just keep their opinions to themselves then I've wasted my time participating in this import. I thought everyone would approach this more scientifically and/or openly. I want this to work, not just for us if we try again but for anyone else who is going to try their hand with these species.

 

[Olimpia]

Maybe I am wrong, but what better do we have to go on? The results of one necropsy out of dozens of bradypodion doesnt say much imo.

EXACTLY. After spending so much money on each one, why would just just go "oh well" and take your losses. It doesn't help you as a keeper or the rest of us gleam anything useful.

 

[Turningdoc]

Laurie,
It seems the thread has wondered a bit. What is your feeding and supplement regimen? Sounds suspicious for Calcium deficiency. It can be hard to get adequate gutload calcium in smaller feeders. Do you dust them as well? Agree it is very important to share as much info as possible as I am part of "the second wave."

 

[coldbloodedAL]

EXACTLY. After spending so much money on each one, why would just just go "oh well" and take your losses. It doesn't help you as a keeper or the rest of us gleam anything useful.

Yes, you and Trace are right on that. I should have, and that is a mistake on my part.

 

[Solid Snake]

I think <25% i too low a RH ;/
Just saying...

I desperately tried to get someone in my area to do a necropsy, I was calling anyone and everyone, they just refused, or ignored me.

I did do my own, but had no idea what to look for really, and the body had started to turn to some extent. Ill see if I have any pictures.

It may have been an insect bite, a poisonous insect, a mole, or anything really, as the visible injuries could have came after the animal was ill.

Laurie, my immediate thoughts would be supplementation, or tongue injury.
Heres hoping its minor, and shes tip top soon. :*

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Laurie there is not a lot of documentation out there on things of this nature. After all who is going to write a book on Cham injuries and illnesses? Most folks when they lose a cham bury it and move on. Forums like this where a bunch of people with Exp is all we got.


That said, you may want to speak with Chris on this considering his experience with chameleon tongues. I had a Quadricornis cham a long time ago that had this issue, but I was lucky in that I observed what happened. The animal shot at a food item and got it's tongue stuck for a second or two before it came loose. After that the animal had a hard time keeping it's tongue in it's mouth. It is a muscle after all and I would think it can get sprained. I can say in my case it was clearly a physical injury.

In my case, the cham was not willing to shoot at prey anymore. I would hand feed it from there on out and it did not eat again on it's own for months. When it did, it would only take a shot just a fraction of the distance they could normally. It lived quite a while but never went back to firing a normal distance.

I don't know if you need to help it eat, you have to determine that but that's the best I got for you out of my bag of tricks.

 

[showjet95]

Laurie,
It seems the thread has wondered a bit. What is your feeding and supplement regimen? Sounds suspicious for Calcium deficiency. It can be hard to get adequate gutload calcium in smaller feeders. Do you dust them as well? Agree it is very important to share as much info as possible as I am part of "the second wave."

Agreed. I had a cb male K. tavetana, that developed MBD, and I thought I was doing everything right but he obviously got it and ultimately died from it. The reason I mention this is because one day I saw his tongue fall out a few times. It freaked me out and I had no clue what may have caused this...Maybe that is the cause?

 

[ataraxia]

Laurie, is the tongue literally falling out limp or is like when they go to shoot and the tongues is more like a projectile ready for take off?

Assuming for what it is worth.
If the tongue is falling out limp, i would personally look into there possibly being a infection within the tongue.