Trioceros Deremensis
- Thread starter Rickky
- Start date
Justin Carl
Avid Member
http://adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/chderemensis.html
Eric A. has a couple of these guys.
I'm sure he will chime in when he takes a look at this thread.
-Good luck, they are a cool species.
Eric A. has a couple of these guys.
I'm sure he will chime in when he takes a look at this thread.
-Good luck, they are a cool species.
Canopy Chameleons
Established Member
I've only kept Deremensis since September or October of last year, but they really are a joy to keep. They're a bit tricky, the biggest thing to overcome with them is the cool temperatures, and the high humidity requirements. With how hot our summers get here (I know not nearly as bad as some of you southerners), I wouldn't be able to keep them if it wasn't for my cool basement. I have them on an auto mist system that goes of a minimum of three times a day, and I keep very low wattage basking bulb on their cages (30W), with their UV fluorescents. Live plants also help keep the humidity up quite a bit.
Canopy Chameleons
Established Member
Outside of a cage? You're meaning to have them free roam in a pet store? Hopefully I'm reading that wrong, but if that's actually what you want to do, the stress alone will kill them from the people in there. They're very discrete Chams, mine get spotty from even looking at them half the time. And outside of the stress issue, there are so many husbandry reasons why that's not a good idea...
Just a few things that I have learned from them...
The females are picky about where they will lay the eggs most of the time.
The male's lips get red when he's in the season to mate.
Hatching the eggs seems to be fairly easy....and they don't take as long as veileds to hatch.
Good luck with them!
The females are picky about where they will lay the eggs most of the time.
The male's lips get red when he's in the season to mate.
Hatching the eggs seems to be fairly easy....and they don't take as long as veileds to hatch.
Good luck with them!
Chase
Chameleon Enthusiast
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Yes, you're right, I'll add to this... they'r emy favorites. I've been keeping them for 7 years, only keeping a few at a time.
I have very high certainty now that I have "figured them out". finally.
I moved. Couldn't get them to live more than 2 or 2.5 years in captivity. they all died the same way (excepting my first one, a CB male from the Kammers - he died from baytril treatment). all of my others died either from being eggbound, or from being grotesquely fat. Fatty liver disease. All had white livers and massive fat pads. They died in a typical manner for obese lizards with fatty livers - slowed down, reduced food intake, reduced water intake, no movement, over many months.
After speaking to Josh Mease, who observed similar problems in Joe B's farm in Tanzania (where these animals were being raised in a warmer climate than their native upland range). I talked to a few people that had better luck than I did, and they all had similar problems - they get fat. HUGELY fat, even with minimal feedings.
Deremensis are amazing. They are perhaps the most effecient calorie-storing animals I've ever had.
Here's why I've had problems: I lived in the Raleigh area. Summers are hot, summer nights are just slightly less hot. I didn't have a basement. My deremensis got a cool down at night of about 10 degress or so, but no winter. Josh had said that deremensis go through a period in their winter where it get sinto the 40's sometimes. They barely eat for several weeks or longer. There's a time when WC deremensis get skinny, and many die.
so, when we moved to the mountains, and my animals were kept in the basement, I let them get cold in the winter. For about 2 months, they barely ate at all. They endured night temps into the 40's often, and day temps were in the 70's. They got skinny. They lived. Havent' had a fat deremensis since I moved. My female laid 19 or so eggs last year, but they were not good (**she showed NO signs of having to lay, an dmy time she did, they were too far gone) . She is gravid again.
**The problem with females is they often do not lay their eggs. Many people have no problems, most do. The key seems to be to have them have a semi-permanant layer of egg laying soil in their cage, complete with premade tunnels and holes. Females will often lay eggs if they have tunnels already made - it's been suggested that they use existing mammal burrows to lay eggs in in the wild.
I have another idea. Other species dig tunnels - montiums, for instance, to escape the cold. I wonder if deremensis do the same. When they lay eggs, they just use "their" burrow. We need to test this.
Keep them cool. They do not like bright light unless it was a cold night, and they bask for a short time only. I raised my CB from a tiny baby to a large adult male with ZERO UVB and ZERO heat lamps - just a standard flour. tube - and repcal. He was very easy to keep, and much less sensative to vitamins than most other montanes (per the Kammers - they had people under supplement deremensis, rarely oversupplement them).
Keep them in the 70's during the day, they seem to like warming up to the 80s' occationally, but not high 80's. humidity shoudl be high, but ventilation is more important. As long as they're well watered, you dont' have to keep the overall humidity as high as it is in their natural habitat - your walls would rot out if you did!
Feed them sparingly once they're dewormed. only 1-2 insects every other day got my WC animals very plump. They must be cooled down for a few weeks. I do mine in the Late fall/winter, but that might not coincide with their natural cool-down. The temps in my basement dictate that for me. They fast for about a month. Without this inactivity, they will not use up their internal fat stores. If they dont' use them up, eventually, they'll become lethargic, and will spiral downhill with liver failure. I've tried to limit their intake under "normal" conditions - I could not get them to live.
I fed my animals 1 insect every 3 days, they still stayed fat. Their fat pads were so large, they seemed perpetually gravid.
Deremensis are the most stress tolerant species Iv'e dealt with. some individuals woudl be fine for a store display. My male and female seem to behave normall y in any situation put them in. I take the male with me to a museum show, and he'll eat in front of kids, from kids, while kids are holding them.
I've never had a deremensis NOT eat from my hand as soon as I got them - the last ones I got in actually ate from my hand as I was extracting them from the shipping bag!
Deremensis seem to do best in pairs or trios, in large, densely planted cages. Males and females will seek each other out, and stay near each other. they'll often sleep touching each other. Outside of the breeding season, I've had males do the same - inside of the breeding season.... different story. So keep males separate - general chameleon keeping common sense.
Deremensis are considered difficult, simply because there's a lot we haven't figured out. If you can maintain their weight, they're easy. in fact, I've found them to be the most relaxed, easy going, easy to keep healthy species I've worked with.
the problem is keeping them from being too fat.
I have very high certainty now that I have "figured them out". finally.
I moved. Couldn't get them to live more than 2 or 2.5 years in captivity. they all died the same way (excepting my first one, a CB male from the Kammers - he died from baytril treatment). all of my others died either from being eggbound, or from being grotesquely fat. Fatty liver disease. All had white livers and massive fat pads. They died in a typical manner for obese lizards with fatty livers - slowed down, reduced food intake, reduced water intake, no movement, over many months.
After speaking to Josh Mease, who observed similar problems in Joe B's farm in Tanzania (where these animals were being raised in a warmer climate than their native upland range). I talked to a few people that had better luck than I did, and they all had similar problems - they get fat. HUGELY fat, even with minimal feedings.
Deremensis are amazing. They are perhaps the most effecient calorie-storing animals I've ever had.
Here's why I've had problems: I lived in the Raleigh area. Summers are hot, summer nights are just slightly less hot. I didn't have a basement. My deremensis got a cool down at night of about 10 degress or so, but no winter. Josh had said that deremensis go through a period in their winter where it get sinto the 40's sometimes. They barely eat for several weeks or longer. There's a time when WC deremensis get skinny, and many die.
so, when we moved to the mountains, and my animals were kept in the basement, I let them get cold in the winter. For about 2 months, they barely ate at all. They endured night temps into the 40's often, and day temps were in the 70's. They got skinny. They lived. Havent' had a fat deremensis since I moved. My female laid 19 or so eggs last year, but they were not good (**she showed NO signs of having to lay, an dmy time she did, they were too far gone) . She is gravid again.
**The problem with females is they often do not lay their eggs. Many people have no problems, most do. The key seems to be to have them have a semi-permanant layer of egg laying soil in their cage, complete with premade tunnels and holes. Females will often lay eggs if they have tunnels already made - it's been suggested that they use existing mammal burrows to lay eggs in in the wild.
I have another idea. Other species dig tunnels - montiums, for instance, to escape the cold. I wonder if deremensis do the same. When they lay eggs, they just use "their" burrow. We need to test this.
Keep them cool. They do not like bright light unless it was a cold night, and they bask for a short time only. I raised my CB from a tiny baby to a large adult male with ZERO UVB and ZERO heat lamps - just a standard flour. tube - and repcal. He was very easy to keep, and much less sensative to vitamins than most other montanes (per the Kammers - they had people under supplement deremensis, rarely oversupplement them).
Keep them in the 70's during the day, they seem to like warming up to the 80s' occationally, but not high 80's. humidity shoudl be high, but ventilation is more important. As long as they're well watered, you dont' have to keep the overall humidity as high as it is in their natural habitat - your walls would rot out if you did!
Feed them sparingly once they're dewormed. only 1-2 insects every other day got my WC animals very plump. They must be cooled down for a few weeks. I do mine in the Late fall/winter, but that might not coincide with their natural cool-down. The temps in my basement dictate that for me. They fast for about a month. Without this inactivity, they will not use up their internal fat stores. If they dont' use them up, eventually, they'll become lethargic, and will spiral downhill with liver failure. I've tried to limit their intake under "normal" conditions - I could not get them to live.
I fed my animals 1 insect every 3 days, they still stayed fat. Their fat pads were so large, they seemed perpetually gravid.
Deremensis are the most stress tolerant species Iv'e dealt with. some individuals woudl be fine for a store display. My male and female seem to behave normall y in any situation put them in. I take the male with me to a museum show, and he'll eat in front of kids, from kids, while kids are holding them.
I've never had a deremensis NOT eat from my hand as soon as I got them - the last ones I got in actually ate from my hand as I was extracting them from the shipping bag!
Deremensis seem to do best in pairs or trios, in large, densely planted cages. Males and females will seek each other out, and stay near each other. they'll often sleep touching each other. Outside of the breeding season, I've had males do the same - inside of the breeding season.... different story. So keep males separate - general chameleon keeping common sense.
Deremensis are considered difficult, simply because there's a lot we haven't figured out. If you can maintain their weight, they're easy. in fact, I've found them to be the most relaxed, easy going, easy to keep healthy species I've worked with.
the problem is keeping them from being too fat.
Cainschams
New Member
That is great info Eric. I have been looking into getting a pair or so. I think they are really nice looking. Ive been waiting till I build my multi enclosure enclosures hahaha. I also need to set up another room from my panthers because I want to work with some of the montanes. I know have more room then ever since my roomate moved out. Just more bills
. Anyway thanks for the advice that really puts more in my head than what I have read about them which isnt really a lot on the husbandry aspect.
. Anyway thanks for the advice that really puts more in my head than what I have read about them which isnt really a lot on the husbandry aspect.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
In my opinion, deremensis are the easiest montanes to keep and raise. Not easy to breed, but easy to keep - provided you can give them cool nights.
I don't really think they NEED temps down into the 40's, but something in the 60's should be ok for a winter period. Keeping it darker for a month or so might even work.
Deremensis are always the most frustrating pets you have - they are very paradoxical. They are large - the biggest horned chameleons, aside from melleri, but you cannot find them. It's easier finding newborn brevs in leaf litter than it is to find a fullgrown deremensis in a 3' planted cage. They are sedentary. They barely move most of the time. Then, when you forget to close the cage dorr, they vanish. They reappear hours later in a laundry basket, lamppost, or some place that your wife will find them before you will. They are the sweetest chameleons you can have - until mating season. I've had a male stab me with his horn, breaking the skin of my hand, while he was trying to kill another male. Females are the sweeetest looking, friendliest female chameleons you'll find. Until gravid. The have th emost evil gravid coloration of all chameleons - solid jet black, and they violently gape at the males, and even shoot them with their tongue - they actually smack the males in the face with their tongues.
A great thign abotu them is the way they hide. They are designed to look like leaves in dense foliage - not like sticks. While other chameleons try to stay out of view by hiding behind a stick, deremensis usually stay visible. they almost always keep their flat side facing out - using their coloration and dorsal fin to break up their outline. It works.
Two days ago, I was looking for my female in her 3'tall cage. It's got two sheffelera in it. Looked for 2-3 minutes befor eI stepped back and saw her - on the tree, 1" away from the screen. They vanish. for their size, hands down the best camo in the chameleon world: leaves with just a hint of sunlight on them.
I don't really think they NEED temps down into the 40's, but something in the 60's should be ok for a winter period. Keeping it darker for a month or so might even work.
Deremensis are always the most frustrating pets you have - they are very paradoxical. They are large - the biggest horned chameleons, aside from melleri, but you cannot find them. It's easier finding newborn brevs in leaf litter than it is to find a fullgrown deremensis in a 3' planted cage. They are sedentary. They barely move most of the time. Then, when you forget to close the cage dorr, they vanish. They reappear hours later in a laundry basket, lamppost, or some place that your wife will find them before you will. They are the sweetest chameleons you can have - until mating season. I've had a male stab me with his horn, breaking the skin of my hand, while he was trying to kill another male. Females are the sweeetest looking, friendliest female chameleons you'll find. Until gravid. The have th emost evil gravid coloration of all chameleons - solid jet black, and they violently gape at the males, and even shoot them with their tongue - they actually smack the males in the face with their tongues.
A great thign abotu them is the way they hide. They are designed to look like leaves in dense foliage - not like sticks. While other chameleons try to stay out of view by hiding behind a stick, deremensis usually stay visible. they almost always keep their flat side facing out - using their coloration and dorsal fin to break up their outline. It works.
Two days ago, I was looking for my female in her 3'tall cage. It's got two sheffelera in it. Looked for 2-3 minutes befor eI stepped back and saw her - on the tree, 1" away from the screen. They vanish. for their size, hands down the best camo in the chameleon world: leaves with just a hint of sunlight on them.
Cainschams
New Member
Hahaha. Yeah I know about vanishing. I let my male panther free range because he rubs his nose in the cages. I have a cardboard boarder that keeps him from climbing down and out. Every once in a while Ill have to go hunt for him. Its kinda fun and hard sometimes. I one day went in and figured out how he would get out. There is a skinny branch on my ficus that he would climb on. It sticks straight up well untill he decides to climb higher on it then it bends straight out. When I came in he was right about to step off the branch onto the cardboard boarder hahaha sly little sucker. Anyway that is really nice info and experiences you shared and def makes me want them even more. I need to get my other room done quick. I dont think they would thrive as well in the room with my panthers.
Canopy Chameleons
Established Member
Eric, you said you keep yours together? I tried this in a 175 gallon (29" x 29" x 48"), and the male got picked on pretty bad, so I had to seperate them. The females are living wonderfully together, but the male just can't be in the tank, or they'll chew at his feet. Have you experienced this? And is there any reason that it could be?
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Generally, they do very well together in a large cage - free roam size plus. A 175 might be fine for a trio outside of breeding/gravid situations, but deremensis tend to develop the eggs internally for quite a while, so that time period might be very long.
My pair has been in a 2'x3'x3' cage for a couple years. The only time I separate them is when the female is clearly gravid. She'll usually make it clear she wants him out - avoiding him/he avoids her. I pulled her out this week, in fact. They're getting along fine, but I am nearly sure she's gravid, and I want to moniter her food intake.
More importantly, I want her comfortable with her nesting site.
For a while, I had a free-roam setup, with 2:2 deremensis in it. There were partial visual bariers - translucent plastic that was esentially a half divider. They could move from side ot side , but they had to make an effort to do so. I found that when the females were less friendly the males stayed no more than 3 feet from them. They often slept together. I even had my adult male sleep near the subadult male - until HE started to move in on the girls (that's when I suffered the goring incident - trying to stimulate courtship in the big male by provocing him wiht another male - it worked).
If they're not getting along, you need to separate them. Housing them together works very well, but requires a larger cage if it's to be a permanant thing. My 3' cages work because I separate them when they need it. AND I have a very compatiible pair.
They need time to get to know each other - house them next to each other if possible, and in visual range.
What did the females do? green with spots? Solid black wiht tongue shooting? If they went solid black, they are likley gravid.
My pair has been in a 2'x3'x3' cage for a couple years. The only time I separate them is when the female is clearly gravid. She'll usually make it clear she wants him out - avoiding him/he avoids her. I pulled her out this week, in fact. They're getting along fine, but I am nearly sure she's gravid, and I want to moniter her food intake.
More importantly, I want her comfortable with her nesting site.
For a while, I had a free-roam setup, with 2:2 deremensis in it. There were partial visual bariers - translucent plastic that was esentially a half divider. They could move from side ot side , but they had to make an effort to do so. I found that when the females were less friendly the males stayed no more than 3 feet from them. They often slept together. I even had my adult male sleep near the subadult male - until HE started to move in on the girls (that's when I suffered the goring incident - trying to stimulate courtship in the big male by provocing him wiht another male - it worked).
If they're not getting along, you need to separate them. Housing them together works very well, but requires a larger cage if it's to be a permanant thing. My 3' cages work because I separate them when they need it. AND I have a very compatiible pair.
They need time to get to know each other - house them next to each other if possible, and in visual range.
What did the females do? green with spots? Solid black wiht tongue shooting? If they went solid black, they are likley gravid.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Yeah - my CB from the Kammers took over a year to be full grown. I fed him as much as he'd eat, much more than I woudl feed a growing veiled. Unlike veileds, he did not grow faster ebcause I fed him more. He grew up just like my CB melleri, actually.
Canopy Chameleons
Established Member
They're all still subadults right now, and both the females are still bright green. The male was removed right when I noticed the female(s) wanted him out. I really don't mind housing them separate at all though. A communal setting might just not work with these three. More than fine considering I don't want the females bred earlier than they need to be.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
You probably will not have to worry - these things are not veileds. When they can breed, breed them. You'll know because the females will not simply become receptive, they become downright seductive. My girls woudl approach the males and rub them, wiht their tails stuck up in the air. Very obvious what they wanted...
When they get close to maturity, it wil not hurt to introduce them again. But, if you keep the cages close, and monitor their behavior, you'll see when they're ready!
When they get close to maturity, it wil not hurt to introduce them again. But, if you keep the cages close, and monitor their behavior, you'll see when they're ready!
Canopy Chameleons
Established Member
Awesome, Thanks Eric!
