Tropical Chameleons

[saradoggy10]

I was *this close* to buying a chameleon from Panther Chameleons but then I asked to see a picture of the dam. They avoided the question and told me "it's the sires that you look at" until they eventually told me that they don't have pictures of the females because they usually die after giving a clutch.
I'm not a super experienced breeder but I'm pretty sure most breeders first care about their females and two they don't usually die after giving a clutch unless they're allowed to produce far too many eggs.

What do you think I should do? Should I tell them I don't trust their care and I won't be buying from them?
Im also specifically looking to breed a line of healthy females so it's pretty concerning.

 

[saradoggy10]

It just infuriates me thinking
"Yeah this female is neat but she'll probably die after I let her lay a clutch. Oh well."

 

[Beman]

I did not think you were a breeder at all? I thought this was going to be your first time even having chameleons...

And a female should not die after having a clutch. This means they are doing something wrong with their care if it is a consistent thing for them to lose a female. Either producing too large of clutches by not controlling her heat and food intake or something is a miss in their husbandry. While things can happen when it comes to females and egg laying it is always a concern with them.

Personally I would not buy from someone that breeds thinking the females are throw a ways like that. However you will find most breeders are only about the males lineage yet most will show an image of the females sire to show what her line brings to the genetic mix.

As a "breeder" you should be concerned with producing healthy offspring regardless of the gender of the offspring.

 

[saradoggy10]

Well I mean im not a breeder at all but I'm still not an experienced breeder haha. Most places ive seen that have been suggested to me do show the male lineage but almost always show the mother as well.
I think I'll stick to breeders that have the females better documented just because then I can at least see the health of the female.
Ive always shown an affinity for female chameleons.
And as for breeding healthy chameleons of course im looking to breed healthy offspring of both sexes. I just want to see if I can breed females that can more safely produce eggs or possibly, produce eggs less frequently without watching their diet.
It's probably impossible but it's worth taking a look into.

Do you think I should tell them im not going to purchase from them because I don't trust their care of their females?

 

[jamest0o0]

Wait so they said their panther females just die after one clutch? That is very odd... I mean it is common for them to have short lives, but not after one. Other species and WC can be much more complicated and it is somewhat normal to have a female not make it. Many parson's for example are CH because the wild female died. I don't think that's the case with Panthers...

 

[jamest0o0]

And yeah, people show the dam's site. The look of the female itself doesn't matter much other than no glaring health problems.

 

[jannb]

Were you talking to Gina at Tropical Chameleons?

 

[JoXie411]

I have a female veiled with reproductive problems so this is very odd to hear. I’m not a breeder but if I can make a chameleon with reproductive problems To lay eggs it shouldn’t be that a problem hard for a breeder.

 

[Beman]

Do you think I should tell them im not going to purchase from them because I don't trust their care of their females?

I do not know the breeder. It may not be their care... It may have just happened with this one female that laid this clutch. This is totally up to you as it will be your chameleon.

 

[Redman]

I will say that clutch laying is VERY hard on female panthers. I would think this especially true of an operation that is feeding heavily to try to maximize growth, and therefor profits, as well as to maximize the number of eggs produced.

Young/small female with HUGE clutch and questionable nutrition/husbandry is going to be a problem more often than not.

I have spoken to a few people who breed as a business over the years and they have said various things, but there does seem to be a consensus that you can expect 3-4 successful clutches from a female before she is done/ going to pass away/ should be retired. They have all said that it's just too hard on them to keep going.

Personally, I say that there is no need to burn bridges. At least they took the time to respond to you, even if you may not have liked the answers. A confrontational reply isn't really going to change anything on their end, IMO.

 

[saradoggy10]

I will say that clutch laying is VERY hard on female panthers. I would think this especially true of an operation that is feeding heavily to try to maximize growth, and therefor profits, as well as to maximize the number of eggs produced.

Young/small female with HUGE clutch and questionable nutrition/husbandry is going to be a problem more often than not.

I have spoken to a few people who breed as a business over the years and they have said various things, but there does seem to be a consensus that you can expect 3-4 successful clutches from a female before she is done/ going to pass away/ should be retired. They have all said that it's just too hard on them to keep going.

Personally, I say that there is no need to burn bridges. At least they took the time to respond to you, even if you may not have liked the answers. A confrontational reply isn't really going to change anything on their end, IMO.

You're entirely right. That's why I'm hesitant.
It's a very frustrating situation since im also specifically looking for Ambanja and those are a little more difficult to find breeders for.

 

[jamest0o0]

I will say that clutch laying is VERY hard on female panthers. I would think this especially true of an operation that is feeding heavily to try to maximize growth, and therefor profits, as well as to maximize the number of eggs produced.

Young/small female with HUGE clutch and questionable nutrition/husbandry is going to be a problem more often than not.

I have spoken to a few people who breed as a business over the years and they have said various things, but there does seem to be a consensus that you can expect 3-4 successful clutches from a female before she is done/ going to pass away/ should be retired. They have all said that it's just too hard on them to keep going.

Personally, I say that there is no need to burn bridges. At least they took the time to respond to you, even if you may not have liked the answers. A confrontational reply isn't really going to change anything on their end, IMO.

I think we all agree with what you're saying, the issue is that ONE clutch should not be killing every female they have. At least that's what it sounds like from what the OP said. I'm with you though, no need for a confrontational reply. Either buy or don't at least they were honest. Maybe it was a misunderstanding in communication too.

 

[salty dog]

Female dying after 1 clutch..... unheard of so far until now in a cb female...ASK TO SEE THE VIV THE FEMALE LIVES IN & THE FEMALE that's laying the eggs, then make your decision from there!! Females should be happy & healthy. period!!

 

[saradoggy10]

Female dying after 1 clutch..... unheard of so far until now in a cb female...ASK TO SEE THE VIV THE FEMALE LIVES IN & THE FEMALE that's laying the eggs, then make your decision from there!!

What I'm MOST worried about is the hesitancy to show the female in the first place so I did ask a little bit ago to see a female in the enclosure
Im really crossing my fingers that they're not showing me because it would be out of their way and not because the females are sick.
Cause the parents are really super pretty and I would like a baby.
Let's hope it is a miscommunication

 

[JoXie411]

This kind of reminds me of what my vet told me that a lot of female chameleons never survive their first egg lady because the keeper doesn’t have proper husbandry. Death could be avoided if you have the right husbandry and as @Redman said not over breeding Makes me wonder are they breeding these chameleons too young? It’s usually advise not to breed a female chameleon until she survives her first egg lay. Then you can roll out reproductive problems from there

 

[salty dog]

The pictures they send you post here on thread please!! We will help you...nobody wants a sick and unhealthy cham!!

 

[saradoggy10]

This kind of reminds me of what my vet told me that a lot of female chameleons never survive their first egg lady because the keeper doesn’t have proper husbandry. Death could be avoided if you have the right husbandry and as @Redman said not over breeding Makes me wonder are they breeding these chameleons too young? It’s usually advise not to breed a female chameleon until she survives her first egg lay. Then you can roll out reproductive problems from there

My guess was that they get a female and encourage it to lay the biggest clutch possible for the biggest cash out. I think some of their females are wild caught but not all

 

[Beman]

@saradoggy10 I think you need to be careful because you are talking about someone's reputation in this hobby. Right now we are getting your point of view and interpretation of their response.

It just infuriates me thinking
"Yeah this female is neat but she'll probably die after I let her lay a clutch. Oh well."

You quoting this makes it seem like this is what they said to you... I am guessing it was how you were thinking about it but it still looks bad.

This is a small community of breeders. Word travels fast through it. I can guarantee it will not take long for them to hear of this posting.
We do have site rules as well and this thread is bordering quite close to a few of them being broken...

This thread has the potential to become a fire storm.... so I will take my leave.

 

[salty dog]

It's common for wc females to die a short life, not cb. Beman is right, please contact them and ask for pictures of the female and viv she lives in please!! Please!! Thanks!!

 

[saradoggy10]

It's common for wc females to die a short life, not cb. Beman is right, please contact them and ask for pictures of the female and viv she lives in please!! Please!! Thanks!!

Already did! To prevent any issues from popping up I will delete this thread. If anything is set in stone I will light the fire, though.