Trying to bring back t. perreti

[cyberlocc]

I wouldn't start having inbred chameleons. That isn't the proper way to go about it. You would only struggle to keep them healthy and in end, probably have a lot of unhealthy chameleons. Nothing good comes from inbred. Only bad genetics and health problems. Just my .02.

Is the male and female you have unrelated? If so, I would focus on getting them to breed. Get a good, healthy clutch from the female. Keep all the young ones as healthy and alive as you possibly can, and keep your fingers crossed that you can find some others that are unrelated that could be paired with your current ones that you have or hope some get imported by some odd chance.

I agree with him, however the odds of some being imported Legally are zelch. They are now internationally protected species, capturing or killing them is a crime.

Which actually leads me to another question. Can you get in trouble for possessing them? Even if you obtained them before the restriction?

I tried to do a little reading on it and some of the rules were not clear. I can tell you, from what I was able to find. If you do have CB babies and want to trade with other people that have CB babies ect. You have to have a Cites permit to transfer ownership of them period!, not to another country to sell them to anyone or even give them away requires a permit.

These are some murky waters you are in, I would be contacting CITEs, and seeing what you can and cannot do.

 

[cyberlocc]

Okay this just got alot murkier. These chameleons have been on the red list for a long time. CITEs has not allowed there import since 2000, These chameleons you have are Black Market, that is why you are not finding keepers owning them or admitting to it. They are and have long been Illegal.

I would tread very carefully if I were you.

 

[Dannysc]

is it me or does the male have something on his "lip"

Has a rub scar from when he was imported a couple years ago. Aldo missing lots of nails

 

[Dannysc]

Okay this just got alot murkier. These chameleons have been on the red list for a long time. CITEs has not allowed there import since 2000, These chameleons you have are Black Market, that is why you are not finding keepers owning them or admitting to it. They are and have long been Illegal.

I would tread very carefully if I were you.

Everything has been looked into and recorded. They are not legal to possess, there was a legal import

Okay this just got alot murkier. These chameleons have been on the red list for a long time. CITEs has not allowed there import since 2000, These chameleons you have are Black Market, that is why you are not finding keepers owning them or admitting to it. They are and have long been Illegal.

I would tread very carefully if I were you.

Everything has been investigated and recorded. The male is a legal import and the female is a captive bred. All good to go.

 

[Dannysc]

I wouldn't start having inbred chameleons. That isn't the proper way to go about it. You would only struggle to keep them healthy and in end, probably have a lot of unhealthy chameleons. Nothing good comes from inbred. Only bad genetics and health problems. Just my .02.

Is the male and female you have unrelated? If so, I would focus on getting them to breed. Get a good, healthy clutch from the female. Keep all the young ones as healthy and alive as you possibly can, and keep your fingers crossed that you can find some others that are unrelated that could be paired with your current ones that you have or hope some get imported by some odd chance.

No other option but to breed or let them die out

 

[Dannysc]

I agree with him, however the odds of some being imported Legally are zelch. They are now internationally protected species, capturing or killing them is a crime.

Which actually leads me to another question. Can you get in trouble for possessing them? Even if you obtained them before the restriction?

I tried to do a little reading on it and some of the rules were not clear. I can tell you, from what I was able to find. If you do have CB babies and want to trade with other people that have CB babies ect. You have to have a Cites permit to transfer ownership of them period!, not to another country to sell them to anyone or even give them away requires a permit.

These are some murky waters you are in, I would be contacting CITEs, and seeing what you can and cannot do.

What do you think @Chris Anderson ?

 

[cyberlocc]

Everything has been looked into and recorded. They are not legal to possess, there was a legal import

Everything has been investigated and recorded. The male is a legal import and the female is a captive bred. All good to go.

There is no way they were legally imported. It has been illegal to capture them or take them from Cameroon since 2000, that cham is not 16 years old.

I am not saying that you will get in trouble, just make sure your paperwork is in order to point the finger at the one at fault. The CB one, again unless there was a permit made for its transfer that was illegal. At least that is what I am reading on there sites.

To go once further, CITEs has not issued a quota since 2000. So no if he was imported after 2000, it was not legal.

Chris Anderson spoke out on a thread here from 2009, stating the same thing.

That said I am no expert in reading legal jargon. Though I would contact CITEs before you breed them or whatever I do not want to see you get in trouble.

 

[Dannysc]

There is no way they were legally imported. It has been illegal to capture them or take them from Cameroon since 2000, that cham is not 16 years old.

I am not saying that you will get in trouble, just make sure your paperwork is in order to point the finger at the one at fault. The CB one, again unless there was a permit made for its transfer that was illegal. At least that is what I am reading on there sites.

To go once further, CITEs has never issued an allowed qouta for this species, ever. Anyone who owns a T. Perreti, has gotten it in an illegal way. No T. Perreti has ever been imported legally, EVER.

Chris Anderson spoke out on a thread here from 2009, stating the same thing.

I have spoken to Chris in detail about them and was told all is good. Believe me that worried me in the beggining so I looked into it very deeply.

 

[cyberlocc]

I have spoken to Chris in detail about them and was told all is good. Believe me that worried me in the beggining so I looked into it very deeply.

Good to know, I am not trying to be a debbie downer, just dont want to see anyone in trouble.

 

[Dannysc]

Good to know, I am not trying to be a debbie downer, just dont want to see anyone in trouble.

Oh I know, and I still question sometimes myself. I am deffinetly soaking what you are saying in.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I wouldn't start having inbred chameleons. That isn't the proper way to go about it. You would only struggle to keep them healthy and in end, probably have a lot of unhealthy chameleons. Nothing good comes from inbred. Only bad genetics and health problems. Just my .02.

Is the male and female you have unrelated? If so, I would focus on getting them to breed. Get a good, healthy clutch from the female. Keep all the young ones as healthy and alive as you possibly can, and keep your fingers crossed that you can find some others that are unrelated that could be paired with your current ones that you have or hope some get imported by some odd chance.

As indicated, my first concern would be getting these to breed and worrying about inbreeding later. If/when you're able to get more blood, do it. I disagree that inbreeding in this case would be the downfall of any such effort. The chance of getting offspring enough generations down the line from a single pair of animals to start experiencing inbreeding effects is pretty slim. The issue is going to be having enough babies produced at all, for multiple generations, not inbreeding effects.

I agree with him, however the odds of some being imported Legally are zelch. They are now internationally protected species, capturing or killing them is a crime.

Which actually leads me to another question. Can you get in trouble for possessing them? Even if you obtained them before the restriction?

I tried to do a little reading on it and some of the rules were not clear. I can tell you, from what I was able to find. If you do have CB babies and want to trade with other people that have CB babies ect. You have to have a Cites permit to transfer ownership of them period!, not to another country to sell them to anyone or even give them away requires a permit.

These are some murky waters you are in, I would be contacting CITEs, and seeing what you can and cannot do.

FWIW, I wrote the IUCN Red List assessment for T. perreti (see "Assessor(s)" on the assessment). They are endemic to Cameroon and found no where else. They are also nominally protected from collection under Cameroonian law ("Class A" species). In reality, however, they are still occasionally exported from Cameroon with CITES documents, and they are exported with CITES documents from Equatorial Guinea. This is even though the species does not occur in Equatorial Guinea, so they should not theoretically be exporting WC specimens of this (and other) species. Until Equatorial Guinea is shut down by CITES, however, there is a good chance these shipments will continue in limited frequency. Unfortunately because the documents are legitimate in that they were issued by the proper authorities in Equatorial Guinea, the animals are regarded as legal too. It is an ongoing problem where the CITES authorities in Equatorial Guinea are abusing the system.

There is no permit needed to possess these animals in the US as long as they were acquired legally (which they were). CITES permits are only required for international transport. You do not need them to own or sell them within the US.

Okay this just got alot murkier. These chameleons have been on the red list for a long time. CITEs has not allowed there import since 2000, These chameleons you have are Black Market, that is why you are not finding keepers owning them or admitting to it. They are and have long been Illegal.

I would tread very carefully if I were you.

They have only been on the Red List since last year. There is also no law in the US related in any way to the status of an animal on the IUCN Red List. For better or worse, the Red List status has no effect on the legal status of an animal in the trade.

There is no way they were legally imported. It has been illegal to capture them or take them from Cameroon since 2000, that cham is not 16 years old.

I am not saying that you will get in trouble, just make sure your paperwork is in order to point the finger at the one at fault. The CB one, again unless there was a permit made for its transfer that was illegal. At least that is what I am reading on there sites.

To go once further, CITEs has not issued a quota since 2000. So no if he was imported after 2000, it was not legal.

Chris Anderson spoke out on a thread here from 2009, stating the same thing.

That said I am no expert in reading legal jargon. Though I would contact CITEs before you breed them or whatever I do not want to see you get in trouble.

They have been exported legally, even if it conflicts with their own laws in the case of Cameroon or the intent of CITES in the case of Equatorial Guinea, quite a bit since 2000. Equatorial Guinea should not be exporting them, but it will take a review by and notification from CITES to stop it and end it technically being "legal". Cameroon also should not be issuing permits per their national legislation, but the wildlife authorities and management agencies do in small numbers, and this is done legally at an international level.

Chris

 

[Nicholasdeaan]

As indicated, my first concern would be getting these to breed and worrying about inbreeding later. If/when you're able to get more blood, do it. I disagree that inbreeding in this case would be the downfall of any such effort. The chance of getting offspring enough generations down the line from a single pair of animals to start experiencing inbreeding effects is pretty slim. The issue is going to be having enough babies produced at all, for multiple generations, not inbreeding effects.

How many generations would you say for an instance like this, it would take to see the negative outcomes of inbreeding? Have you ever experienced any or noted any in the wild? Not stepping on your toes by any means. Only asking for my own benefit of knowledge.

I see what you're saying as well. Possibly getting one clutch or two of inbreed babies, in hopes that some where along the lines other unrelated pairs can have babies and breed with the inbred chameleons, expanding the bloodlines?

 

[Chris Anderson]

How many generations would you say for an instance like this, it would take to see the negative outcomes of inbreeding? Have you ever experienced any or noted any in the wild? Not stepping on your toes by any means. Only asking for my own benefit of knowledge.

I've never seen much documenting negative outcomes of inbreeding in chameleons, and some of the introduced populations are arguably from fairly limited founder populations. Its all going to depend on the genetics of the individuals, so in some cases negative effects could be immediate. In other cases it could take many generations.

I see what you're saying as well. Possibly getting one clutch or two of inbreed babies, in hopes that some where along the lines other unrelated pairs can have babies and breed with the inbred chameleons, expanding the bloodlines?

Exactly. Outcrossing down the line could help keep a population going and help strengthen lines by infusing new genes into already established lines.

Chris

 

[Nicholasdeaan]

I've never seen much documenting negative outcomes of inbreeding in chameleons, and some of the introduced populations are arguably from fairly limited founder populations. Its all going to depend on the genetics of the individuals, so in some cases negative effects could be immediate. In other cases it could take many generations.



Exactly. Outcrossing down the line could help keep a population going and help strengthen lines by infusing new genes into already established lines.

Chris

Makes sense. No doubt there are CB or just wild caught chameleons kept in captivity that have some inbred blood in their genes. Obviously wild chameleons aren't separated or kept from breeding with eachothers relatives. I guess with a species that has such limited numbers, it's worth the risk in an effort to save them.

What I just wouldn't want to see is clutch after clutch of inbred chameleons to the point of where they're mutated and half sickly. If that could happen in their case?

 

[Dannysc]

Thank you. For responding.

 

[leedragon]

I've never seen much documenting negative outcomes of inbreeding in chameleons, and some of the introduced populations are arguably from fairly limited founder populations. Its all going to depend on the genetics of the individuals, so in some cases negative effects could be immediate. In other cases it could take many generations.



Exactly. Outcrossing down the line could help keep a population going and help strengthen lines by infusing new genes into already established lines.

Chris

Chirst did bradypodiums have long had problems in the US due the smal size of the genetic pool?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chirst did bradypodiums have long had problems in the US due the smal size of the genetic pool?

I don't know that it can really be pinned to genetics or maternal effects, or just care.