Two New Chams! Carpet/Mitsio (photos!!)

[viaje]

I'm also very interested in seeing more of this little guy, I had a leopard gecko with only three legs and no tail, but he was still fast! (his missing leg was an accident with another leopard gecko, not a defect)
The ones that have these little, uhm, quirks? always seem to make up for it with personality.
You should make a thread on this guy and update it once in a while so we can watch him grow up, I'd definitely follow it!

 

[wheresstimpy]

your little panther is so cute, as long as the rest of his health is fine im sure he will do great with you, he should learn how to get around just fine with his back legs and his tail, i would love to see a video of him on the move. I bet in a few months his legs and tail are going to be ridiculously buff. Good luck. Oh and good looking carpet as well i always love to see pictures of them as they are kind of rare in my area(at least i have never seen one).

 

[taomuheifu]

How cute ! I like the young , the baby

 

[wheresstimpy]

any updates?

 

[kenya]

any updates?

I'm afraid this little guy passed away a few weeks ago. He declined over a few days and then was gone. It think it had something to do with his front end. He started hanging off of his branches by his tail and back legs.

I am sorry to see him go.

 

[jernlee]

Sorry for the loss. What a cute little guy.

 

[Marc10edora]

Wow. Is that due to in-breeding? Sorry he didn't make it.

 

[kenya]

Wow. Is that due to in-breeding? Sorry he didn't make it.

No, he was not line bred. He was just an anomaly. If you read back in the thread, there is speculation on what caused it. An absence of certain homeobox genes I think it was?

 

[Niels Pedersen]

Dont want to start a fight, I really dont, but I want to share my opinion, as this is really what a forum is about.
I dont understand why you people think its so cool with mutations, I dont know if its because the animal is rare or what ever the reason are. I find chameleons fascinating because of what they are and how the differ from other reptiles, but imo its another kind of interest, when you get excited about mutations, colour morphs, ect.
I can understand that this baby came from an otherwise healthy clutch, so this was a natural thing, but you have to agree with me, that its should not have been borns this way, so to be sad about its death is just crazy IMO.

We see alot of people selling and buying translucent/pieball Ch. calyptratus, but again IMO you have a different kind of interest, if you want to breed mutations.

We as humans do what we can to reduce the numbers of mutations in people, but in reptiles we keeps breeding on them. With humans we are worried about if they will have a worthy and natural life, but with animals, people dont give a damn.

This is just my opinion.

 

[danielle609]

Dont want to start a fight, I really dont, but I want to share my opinion, as this is really what a forum is about.
I dont understand why you people think its so cool with mutations, I dont know if its because the animal is rare or what ever the reason are. I find chameleons fascinating because of what they are and how the differ from other reptiles, but imo its another kind of interest, when you get excited about mutations, colour morphs, ect.
I can understand that this baby came from an otherwise healthy clutch, so this was a natural thing, but you have to agree with me, that its should not have been borns this way, so to be sad about its death is just crazy IMO.

We see alot of people selling and buying translucent/pieball Ch. calyptratus, but again IMO you have a different kind of interest, if you want to breed mutations.

We as humans do what we can to reduce the numbers of mutations in people, but in reptiles we keeps breeding on them. With humans we are worried about if they will have a worthy and natural life, but with animals, people dont give a damn.

This is just my opinion.

I do agree that it is cruel to purposely breed to form mutations. As with this baby panther, had it been born like that in the wild it wouldn't have even made it out of the hole. So I agree with you %100 on that part, what I don't agree on is that you are saying we shouldn't be sad that it died. So what about these babies that are born with extreme deformities and not expected to live...are we not suppose to grieve when they die?? I understand we shouldn't have expected it to grow up healthy and normal, and UNDERSTAND that there is a great chance of it not surviving but just not caring that it died is immoral and inhuman-like. That is just my 2 cents, and like I said, I agree with you about purposely breeding for mutations...but that is a whole other thread...I believe there is one.

Dani

 

[hallenhe]

I would agree with Niels if somebody were setting out to breed legless chams -but this is not the case. There's nothing unnatural or crazy in caring for and mourning the death of this little Cham; it's no one's "fault" that he was born without his front legs, he was doing well for awhile, and it's in our nature to cheer for people and creatures that overcome terrible odds. I'm sorry to see the little guy go.

 

[Sang]

I believe kenya picked up the little two legger in hopes of giving it a better life then it would have normally recieved. it would have been a struggle for anyone caring for an animal like that, but kenya felt she should take it on. Unfortunatly his health wasn't top notch and he was really never destined to make it.

 

[kenya]

Dont want to start a fight, I really dont, but I want to share my opinion, as this is really what a forum is about.
I dont understand why you people think its so cool with mutations, I dont know if its because the animal is rare or what ever the reason are. I find chameleons fascinating because of what they are and how the differ from other reptiles, but imo its another kind of interest, when you get excited about mutations, colour morphs, ect.
I can understand that this baby came from an otherwise healthy clutch, so this was a natural thing, but you have to agree with me, that its should not have been borns this way, so to be sad about its death is just crazy IMO.

We see alot of people selling and buying translucent/pieball Ch. calyptratus, but again IMO you have a different kind of interest, if you want to breed mutations.

We as humans do what we can to reduce the numbers of mutations in people, but in reptiles we keeps breeding on them. With humans we are worried about if they will have a worthy and natural life, but with animals, people dont give a damn.

This is just my opinion.

I understand what you are trying to say but to state is so bluntly is really rude. This little guy was neat and deserved a chance at a good life just like any other chameleon. I was not intending on breeding him when he became of age. By your theory, you would want a genocide of sorts on all mutations of animals, healthy or not.

Also, to say "but you have to agree with me, that its should not have been borns this way, so to be sad about its death is just crazy IMO. " is really out of bounds. This was one of my pets and I loved the little guy- I wouldn't harass you if you had a dog that died so please don't tell me that I was wrong for buying and keeping a "mutant" animal that was born a little different but still seemed to be healthy. I really adored this little guy and did the best I could for him but he didn't make it. You can't tell me that I have no right to miss and mourn him.

As an example many, many dogs today have hip dysplasia. Does that mean the owners shouldn't mourn the death of their beloved friend of 7 years? No, it means the dog should not breed as it does have a genetic defect. It does not mean that the dog shouldn't be loved.

 

[CarolenRunsen]

completely agree! Just because an animal happens to be born different doesn't mean we should give up on them. I admire anyone who cares for these animals It takes a lot of courage and commitment to care for a special needs anything(pet/animal or person). Why not be sad for the death of animal no matter what it looks like!!

 

[Niels Pedersen]

I understand what you are trying to say but to state is so bluntly is really rude. This little guy was neat and deserved a chance at a good life just like any other chameleon. I was not intending on breeding him when he became of age. By your theory, you would want a genocide of sorts on all mutations of animals, healthy or not.

Also, to say "but you have to agree with me, that its should not have been borns this way, so to be sad about its death is just crazy IMO. " is really out of bounds. This was one of my pets and I loved the little guy- I wouldn't harass you if you had a dog that died so please don't tell me that I was wrong for buying and keeping a "mutant" animal that was born a little different but still seemed to be healthy. I really adored this little guy and did the best I could for him but he didn't make it. You can't tell me that I have no right to miss and mourn him.

As an example many, many dogs today have hip dysplasia. Does that mean the owners shouldn't mourn the death of their beloved friend of 7 years? No, it means the dog should not breed as it does have a genetic defect. It does not mean that the dog shouldn't be loved.

Well life is cruel and I dont belive we should try saving any animal no matter the costs, as its unnatural and its really only our human feelings that makes us care "TO much". IMO people are doing everyting they can to keep their pets alive, even though they might only make it for a few more months. I think its more cruel to do a surgery on a 10years old dog, as we are only doing so, because we dont want to part with it, so why not euthenize it in a peaceful way. We keep animals, not the other way aorund, so we should have the strength to "let nature take its course" or euthenize them. I no its a hard debate, who deserve to live and should not, and remember, we are not talking about humans or endangered species. Now don´t say im harassing you, couse I don´t, im just saying my opinion and thats really what a forums is about, to discuss.

Wikipedia:
A discussion is a debate between people of different views. The discussion is a vital and essential part of a free and democratic society, where it will replace conflicts and violence. A Discussion is to discuss an issue in all its perspectives, as participants and as they listen to and consider forming or strengthening their point of view.

 

[Happy Cham]

I agree with you Kenya! You tried to give him a better life while he was living, and in the end that is what matters. You have every right to feel sad and feel a loss from this little guy's death. I'm glad their are people out there like you, that try and help animals that some do not want to even deal with becuase they were not born looking like the "norm".

 

[Sang]

Well life is cruel and I dont belive we should try saving any animal no matter the costs, as its unnatural and its really only our human feelings that makes us care "TO much". IMO people are doing everyting they can to keep their pets alive, even though they might only make it for a few more months. I think its more cruel to do a surgery on a 10years old dog, as we are only doing so, because we dont want to part with it, so why not euthenize it in a peaceful way. We keep animals, not the other way aorund, so we should have the strength to "let nature take its course" or euthenize them. I no its a hard debate, who deserve to live and should not, and remember, we are not talking about humans or endangered species. Now don´t say im harassing you, couse I don´t, im just saying my opinion and thats really what a forums is about, to discuss.

Wikipedia:
A discussion is a debate between people of different views. The discussion is a vital and essential part of a free and democratic society, where it will replace conflicts and violence. A Discussion is to discuss an issue in all its perspectives, as participants and as they listen to and consider forming or strengthening their point of view.

damn man, don't forget, she didn't give it some life altering surgery to give him limbs, all she did was take it, in hopes that it might live in her care, it did not. just because you wouldn't do it, no reason to bash anybodies rights, or there reasoning behind caring for what ever animal.

 

[kenya]

Well life is cruel and I dont belive we should try saving any animal no matter the costs, as its unnatural and its really only our human feelings that makes us care "TO much". IMO people are doing everyting they can to keep their pets alive, even though they might only make it for a few more months.I think its more cruel to do a surgery on a 10years old dog, as we are only doing so, because we dont want to part with it, so why not euthenize it in a peaceful way. We keep animals, not the other way aorund, so we should have the strength to "let nature take its course" or euthenize them. I no its a hard debate, who deserve to live and should not, and remember, we are not talking about humans or endangered species. Now don´t say im harassing you, couse I don´t, im just saying my opinion and thats really what a forums is about, to discuss.

Wikipedia:
A discussion is a debate between people of different views. The discussion is a vital and essential part of a free and democratic society, where it will replace conflicts and violence. A Discussion is to discuss an issue in all its perspectives, as participants and as they listen to and consider forming or strengthening their point of view.

I see what you are saying but I don't think that you understand this situation. My little Mitsio was acting to be in good health- he got around fine, drank, was good colors. When he did finally degrade, it was very quickly and he started slowing down, stopped eating and passed. This all happened in a few days. For you to say "Well life is cruel and I dont belive we should try saving any animal no matter the costs, as its unnatural and its really only our human feelings that makes us care "TO much". IMO people are doing everyting they can to keep their pets alive, even though they might only make it for a few more months." does not apply to my situation.

Also, if you have read some of my other posts, you will see that I am reasonable and also believe that euthanasia can be kinder in some situations.

Find my posts in this thread and you will see what I mean: https://www.chameleonforums.com/other-reptiles-chameleons-17661/

I don't appreciate you coming to my thread and fouling it up with this nonsense. You may not be "attacking me" over this, but you are saying some very unnecessary negative things that don't even pertain to this specific situation. Please stop and let this thread die. (or just euthanize it)

 

[MoPaAn]

Hi All

I see what both of you mean. Since i know Niels, i also know he LOVES chameleons, and i think he has one of the top three pardalis breeding records in scandinavia (just left of Russia ) - I dont think, he was thinking of the difference in your approach to chameleon keeping... I think he was just thinking " if that baby hatched in my house it was nothing but a snack, or a very interesting speciment in alcohol"
I think it was very ... humane ... of you to try to give it a good life, but somewere in the back of your mind, you must have known it was doomed. Just baring in mind how fragile non-tetrapodacialey challenged ( ) chameleon babies can be. I have seen many speciments in nature, with amputations, presumabley from territoryal disputes, both pinchers, leggs and tails, but i have never seen an adult with a birthdefect.... netiher in the wild or in captivety (not counting strange horns, and Albinism ect.) I think that your attemt at "saving" this bipod baby, totaly speaks for your personalety and i´m sure you are an extremely likeable person. But as someone who could potentialey be beying chameleon babies from Niels in the future, i´m sort of comfortet by his "weed out the weak" mentalety.

.....beating a dead horse...... ?

Sorry for your loss
Morten

 

[kenya]

Hi All

I see what both of you mean. Since i know Niels, i also know he LOVES chameleons, and i think he has one of the top three pardalis breeding records in scandinavia (just left of Russia ) - I dont think, he was thinking of the difference in your approach to chameleon keeping... I think he was just thinking " if that baby hatched in my house it was nothing but a snack, or a very interesting speciment in alcohol"
I think it was very ... humane ... of you to try to give it a good life, but somewere in the back of your mind, you must have known it was doomed. Just baring in mind how fragile non-tetrapodacialey challenged ( ) chameleon babies can be. I have seen many speciments in nature, with amputations, presumabley from territoryal disputes, both pinchers, leggs and tails, but i have never seen an adult with a birthdefect.... netiher in the wild or in captivety (not counting strange horns, and Albinism ect.) I think that your attemt at "saving" this bipod baby, totaly speaks for your personalety and i´m sure you are an extremely likeable person. But as someone who could potentialey be beying chameleon babies from Niels in the future, i´m sort of comfortet by his "weed out the weak" mentalety.

.....beating a dead horse...... ?

Sorry for your loss
Morten

What sense does it make to "weed out the weak" when you were not going to breed the animal with a birth defect? This little guy did great for over a month. He seemed as healthy and happy and well adjusted as any of his perfectly formed clutch mates. It did not make sense to his breeder or to me to euthanize a perfectly healthy animal just because it had no front legs.