Unorthodox Gut Loading Advice from Vet

[jajeanpierre]

I just had my young female Veiled in to the vet because of an eye injury. He is my avian vet who also does a lot of work with reptiles. He has a lot of chameleons in his practice. I am a very new chameleon owner, so we discussed husbandry.

He had a very unorthodox gut-loading protocol and wanted to bounce it off experienced chameleon keepers.

He likes to gut-load his crickets with moistened dry dog food. He said the crickets would be gut-loaded with a lot of nutrients (vitamins and calcium, etc.) from the dog food.

Has anyone else done that?

We also discussed safe plants for my male veiled who eats EVERYTHING. Pothos is listed as a safe plant on chameleon forums, but it is considered poisonous for birds. We talked about the poison lists, and he said they were not as accurate as one would hope, and were not based on research. He recommended I only put Hibiscus in the cage, since he ate such large quantities of vegetation, unlike most other chameleons.

 

[distortionz]

I've always been told stay away from dog/cat food or if you do use it, it definitely shouldn't be a main staple in the gut load

 

[ZiggyStardust]

Absolutely not, in my honest opinion.

Feeders need plenty of green leafy vegetables and also fruits, to be of the maximum nutritional value to your chameleon, and what they would get in the wild.

Insects in the wild don't eat dog and cat food, and I am honestly astonished that an experienced herp vet would give such advice.

When I got my first chameleon, the breeder told me to feed my feeders on dried, tropical fish flakes, which I quickly found out was very poor advice.

 

[frankpayne32]

Most vets, even those with some "exotics" experience, know very little about actually caring for these animals in captivity long-term. If you're lucky you will find a vet that will know reptile biology well enough and can treat certain illnesses and injuries. Most, but not all, vets don't have the experience to give care advice for most reptiles.

Stay away from dog food as a staple gut-load. It won't hurt in the short-term but is definitely not healthy long-term.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Most vets, even those with some "exotics" experience, know very little about actually caring for these animals in captivity long-term. If you're lucky you will find a vet that will know reptile biology well enough and can treat certain illnesses and injuries. Most, but not all, vets don't have the experience to give care advice for most reptiles.

Stay away from dog food as a staple gut-load. It won't hurt in the short-term but is definitely not healthy long-term.

Thanks.

I know most medical doctors know absolutely nothing about nutrition. I can't imagine that veterinarians would be any different.

 

[bobcochran]

Dog and cat food have too many vitamin supplements and way too much protein
For chameleons.

 

[Bush baby]

It is true that the dog food will fill the crickets up with a lot of vitamins and minerals, but it will also fill them up with too much protein, which will shorten your chameleon's lifespan.

I occasionally gut load with fish flakes..but once every two, or three months, or so. They too have too much protein, but are loaded with multivitamins.

 

[jajeanpierre]

It is true that the dog food will fill the crickets up with a lot of vitamins and minerals, but it will also fill them up with too much protein, which will shorten your chameleon's lifespan.

I occasionally gut load with fish flakes..but once every two, or three months, or so. They too have too much protein, but are loaded with multivitamins.

I had been gut loading my crickets with shredded carrots and carrot tops because my concern is a shortage of Vitamin A.

Would you think that gut loading crickets with a good quality moistened dry dog food once in awhile was advisable for the reasons you've stated? (The vet pointed out dog food had a lot of vitamins, calcium, etc., already added.)

The more I learn, I find the less I know....

 

[repdog]

Very simple just order dry food from the roachguy.com and it has everything you need for reptiles in it. Lots of calcium, vitamins. Just use any other fruit and veg you want to add. The roaches I have love it and when I had crickets they went crazy for it. Sure got the crickets to live longer.

 

[junglefries]

No no no! Pick one of sandra's diets or SMNary bug buffet.

 

[ZiggyStardust]

My advice would be no.

Too much protein can play havoc with a chameleons kidneys and you are risking this by feeding dog food.

Dogs and cats need high protein in their diets, chameleons do not.

If you give your chameleon a muti-vitamin/mineral supplement, by dusting well fed insects once a month, with something like Reptivite, that is honestly all you need.

MANTRA to live by (and my chameleons are thriving)

Insects gutloaded with fresh greens, salads and fruits
Every feeding dusted in plain, phosphorous free calcium
Once a month - D3
Once a month - Reptivite, or equivalent

If you don't stray far from this, you won't go wrong.

My chameleons are proof of this.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Very simple just order dry food from the roachguy.com and it has everything you need for reptiles in it. Lots of calcium, vitamins. Just use any other fruit and veg you want to add. The roaches I have love it and when I had crickets they went crazy for it. Sure got the crickets to live longer.

I just had a look on his site.

What size roaches will my 40 gram veiled juvenile eat? I want to set up a breeding colony as well, so how many adults would work?

Thanks.

 

[repdog]

I'm not sure on the size of roaches you need to feed but for a starter colony I can help. I started with ordering 500 roaches. I got a mix order that did include one female and one male. It took a while for the colony to grow but once it did I had way to many. I have sold off my colony 3 times so far in 2 years. I sell them to the local reptile store and get store credit for them.

 

[Bush baby]

I had been gut loading my crickets with shredded carrots and carrot tops because my concern is a shortage of Vitamin A.

Would you think that gut loading crickets with a good quality moistened dry dog food once in awhile was advisable for the reasons you've stated? (The vet pointed out dog food had a lot of vitamins, calcium, etc., already added.)

The more I learn, I find the less I know....

Once in a while is fine, and when i say once in a while, i mean once every two months or so. The problem we see is that since foods like dry dog food are so convenient, people tend to use them more than they should..and that will cause problems for your cham.

Just to add, it would be naive to assume that insects in the wild don't consume animal proteins, like meat, etc…and those same insects are then snagged by a chameleon. Insects tend to be the first and last on the scene when i comes to dead animals in the wild. So even in the wild, chameleons do eat insects that have high levels of protein in their gut…but not regularly.

 

[Olimpia]

Another thing to consider when using dog or cat food is that the cheaper the food the more bad stuff is in there too - like colorants, preservatives, and artificial flavors. I doubt that when most people buy a bag of dog food for bugs they reach for a $60 bag of Blue Buffalo or whatever higher-end food. They're going to pick up some of the cheap stuff you can buy a bag of for $7, which is 5 lbs of chicken feather/beak mash and fake orange food coloring slathered in chemical vitamins.

I don't know how delicious that sounds for anyone else, but I rather either buy a bag of high-quality bug food or mix my own variety of fruits, veggies, grains, and nuts!

It's definitely true that some feeders that a chameleon encounters in the wild will have a belly full of meat, but probably not all the chemicals and artificial flavors in your typical bag of bargain pet food. You're probably better off throwing a few small scraps from your own steak dinner into your cricket/roach bin than cheap cat/dog food if you're looking to offer a little animal protein here and then (which isn't absolutely necessary anyway, so I'd skip doing that too lol)

 

[pigglett79]

I adopted a panther chameleon a year ago from someone who was told by their vet to gutload with dog food. The high protein can lead to gout in chameleons. When I first got him I took him to the vet as he had an eye issue, needed a fecal and was hanging his legs. His blood work and x rays showed the beginning of gout. He had high uric acid but no serious crystallization in the joints yet. After feeding him with properly gut loaded insects and correcting his husbandry his uric acid went back to normal and his legs stopped hurting.

 

[junglefries]

I adopted a panther chameleon a year ago from someone who was told by their vet to gutload with dog food. The high protein can lead to gout in chameleons. When I first got him I took him to the vet as he had an eye issue, needed a fecal and was hanging his legs. His blood work and x rays showed the beginning of gout. He had high uric acid but no serious crystallization in the joints yet. After feeding him with properly gut loaded insects and correcting his husbandry his uric acid went back to normal and his legs stopped hurting.

The gout ain't NO joke.