Using a small enclosure for the first two to four weeks?

[Futurechameleommom]

I didn't say you cant put a baby in a big cage.

You can, it will likely be fine.

Just saying, that not everyone feels that way, there are of course arguments to both sides, however the wild argument that gets thrown around for this and other debates, is not a reasonable one. The Wild is not some fairy tale land, with feeders abound and perfect basking spots available for everyone. The wild is cruel, hard, and unforgiving place that few survive, not something we are trying to emulate in captivity.


There is also as James said, and I would endorse as well. The argument for separate caging being Parasites. You buy a nice fancy cage, deck it out, with cork bark on the walls, 100s of dollars of plants, CUC Crew that you have been breeding for months, throw that baby in for the vet to tell you 3 days later, your baby has coccida, and all of that work, money and time is now worthless in the dumpster. Everything needs thrown away, the cage needs deep cleaned, and preferably you need another thats easy to clean and has less stuff to monitor health and clean up easier.

This doesn't even end with just parasites, it could be any other magnitude of disease or illness, that is spreadable.

From that aspect alone, which is something I would suggest anyway, all babies should not be added to large cages, not because of the size, but because until the animal is known to be clear and healthy its easier to ensure those things in the tub he was suggested.


Size could too be a factor, I know like you said the wild, however the other flip to that coin is how were the babies raised? Were they raised in DS nurserys? Tiny little cages, with a feeder dish they always knew they could find food in. Now you toss them into a 2x2x4ft cage with a few running crickets, they are not use to eating that way, they are not used to having to track their food. Will they get use to it, ya, but that will take time, and a baby of unknown size may not have that time, especially if they are younger than the 3 months they should be. They have grown accustomed to their tiny cage and feeder bowl, thats all they know. You are uprooting them, and such, they are stressed, and now they dont even know where there food is.



At the end of the day, the breeder obviously has some clue what they are doing, if they were able to breed the animals and keep them alive to this point. They are also the sole insurance of your health guarantee, and that should also be kept in mind. The community has our own individual opinions of what we should and shouldn't do, but especially in that first X days of health guarantee, the community will not be the one replacing the animal if it passes or has issues. So I would do what they said, at least during that Health Guarantee personally.

If I was the breeder and I tell you buy this Linear bulb, and you have no UV light, and I said buy a 40w basking, and you have 100w, and I said use a 16 inch tub, and your using a 10 gal aquarium, and you PM me 3 days after arrival and say the animal passed. Do you think I am going to replace that animal? When you did not do anything as I said to? Especially when all the things you did could kill the animal?




I mean ya, there is a plethora of reasons. Its not just about food, however that most certainly is likely an aspect. Of the videos I have seen of wild chams hatching and be being videoed, they do not go far. They hatch under the bush they were laid, and tend to stay there for awhile, on that bush together, sometimes with adults present sometimes not. At least for the first few weeks, from the few videos and such I have seen on the subject. Fighting, Predators, lack of Water due to bad timing, ect, are all also likely issues that lead to their demise.

I'm not an expert on this whatsoever, but what I have gathered from reading and researching is getting a Cham is always a risk. Whether you put them in a small or large cage there are risks. At the end of the day, we are trying to replicate their natural habitat the best we can and throwing them in a small cage is taking away from that. I think when people put them in a larger cage it's because it's we

I didn't say you cant put a baby in a big cage.

You can, it will likely be fine.

Just saying, that not everyone feels that way, there are of course arguments to both sides, however the wild argument that gets thrown around for this and other debates, is not a reasonable one. The Wild is not some fairy tale land, with feeders abound and perfect basking spots available for everyone. The wild is cruel, hard, and unforgiving place that few survive, not something we are trying to emulate in captivity.


There is also as James said, and I would endorse as well. The argument for separate caging being Parasites. You buy a nice fancy cage, deck it out, with cork bark on the walls, 100s of dollars of plants, CUC Crew that you have been breeding for months, throw that baby in for the vet to tell you 3 days later, your baby has coccida, and all of that work, money and time is now worthless in the dumpster. Everything needs thrown away, the cage needs deep cleaned, and preferably you need another thats easy to clean and has less stuff to monitor health and clean up easier.

This doesn't even end with just parasites, it could be any other magnitude of disease or illness, that is spreadable.

From that aspect alone, which is something I would suggest anyway, all babies should not be added to large cages, not because of the size, but because until the animal is known to be clear and healthy its easier to ensure those things in the tub he was suggested.


Size could too be a factor, I know like you said the wild, however the other flip to that coin is how were the babies raised? Were they raised in DS nurserys? Tiny little cages, with a feeder dish they always knew they could find food in. Now you toss them into a 2x2x4ft cage with a few running crickets, they are not use to eating that way, they are not used to having to track their food. Will they get use to it, ya, but that will take time, and a baby of unknown size may not have that time, especially if they are younger than the 3 months they should be. They have grown accustomed to their tiny cage and feeder bowl, thats all they know. You are uprooting them, and such, they are stressed, and now they dont even know where there food is.



At the end of the day, the breeder obviously has some clue what they are doing, if they were able to breed the animals and keep them alive to this point. They are also the sole insurance of your health guarantee, and that should also be kept in mind. The community has our own individual opinions of what we should and shouldn't do, but especially in that first X days of health guarantee, the community will not be the one replacing the animal if it passes or has issues. So I would do what they said, at least during that Health Guarantee personally.

If I was the breeder and I tell you buy this Linear bulb, and you have no UV light, and I said buy a 40w basking, and you have 100w, and I said use a 16 inch tub, and your using a 10 gal aquarium, and you PM me 3 days after arrival and say the animal passed. Do you think I am going to replace that animal? When you did not do anything as I said to? Especially when all the things you did could kill the animal?




I mean ya, there is a plethora of reasons. Its not just about food, however that most certainly is likely an aspect. Of the videos I have seen of wild chams hatching and be being videoed, they do not go far. They hatch under the bush they were laid, and tend to stay there for awhile, on that bush together, sometimes with adults present sometimes not. At least for the first few weeks, from the few videos and such I have seen on the subject. Fighting, Predators, lack of Water due to bad timing, ect, are all also likely issues that lead to their demise.

That is a very good point I didn't think of. If the breeder told you to put them in a small enclosure, and you put them in a big one, if something happens they may not give you the health guarantee. That would suck, especially if you got an expensive Cham.

 

[Beman]

Yeah very good point. I used to worry about how devastating it'd be to have something like that happen with a fully bio enclosure. Horrible enough with a barebottom...

Omg I could not imagine if it was a fully bio active... The total loss would be crazy.

 

[cyberlocc]

Yeah this totally sucks..... threw out about $350 worth of stuff.

Yep, that was very sad .

We as a community and breeders in the community need to push for QT practices better.

I have been dabbling into Geckos, and the Leaf Tail breeders I have been putting feelers out with, a few told me straight up. QT the animals I give you. I asked them, is their a risk of Parasites or something and they said, "We do fecals, there should not be a Risk, it does not matter, I cannot promise you that, QT any animal you receive from anyone, ALWAYS."

Especially with all these potential risks.

Things I never even thought of, like how about this one. You get a fecal on the baby, you pack the animal up, with shipping supplies that are usually bought from Reptile Business, who house, handle and maintain reptiles. Coccida can live on surfaces for what 2 years? What about things like Phase Change packs? That are commonly reused, and resold to be used again. They get Coccida on them, by accident and get reused.

So lets say thats all clear, and you have no parasites on the box or the supplies you use to ship. However, SYRs ships all these things in large batches, they go through their fedex distribution, through their assigned centers. It just so happens some one else in your state is using SYR, for his WC, that is in a bag, and that importer got some contaminated poop on his box, which is now smooshed up with your box spreading the contamination. You get your box, grab the poo, not even knowing its there, and then handle your new reptile who licks your hand looking for a drink and now has just been infected with a parasite.


People with Animals and business with animals, deal with animals. Those animals have parasites that can spread, from any of those people on any stage between me and you, and could have been there, and not detected. There is no world, where you can guarantee anyone their new arrival from you, is 100% not infected with parasites, or wont be upon arrival. To many hands, too many other herps around and on those hands. Just like everyone is spazzing about right now with COVID19, shipping stuff, handling money, ect.

The gecko people, give me whole other levels of paranoid lol. They are working with extremely sensitive, hard to keep alive, 600-800 dollar Leaf Tail geckos, that are hard enough to keep alive, with out anything even resembling an issue. They are vastly more thorough, with records, with disclaimers, with vet care, ect. They are not as mainstream, and that likely adds to it. These people are Extremely devoted to these animals, and their care.

 

[Beman]

Yep, that was very sad .

We as a community and breeders in the community need to push for QT practices better.

I have been dabbling into Geckos, and the Leaf Tail breeders I have been putting feelers out with, a few told me straight up. QT the animals I give you. I asked them, is their a risk of Parasites or something and they said, "We do fecals, there should not be a Risk, it does not matter, I cannot promise you that, QT any animal you receive from anyone, ALWAYS."

Especially with all these potential risks.

Things I never even thought of, like how about this one. You get a fecal on the baby, you pack the animal up, with shipping supplies that are usually bought from Reptile Business, who house, handle and maintain reptiles. Coccida can live on surfaces for what 2 years? What about things like Phase Change packs? That are commonly reused, and resold to be used again. They get Coccida on them, by accident and get reused.

So lets say thats all clear, and you have no parasites on the box or the supplies you use to ship. However, SYRs ships all these things in large batches, they go through their fedex distribution, through their assigned centers. It just so happens some one else in your state is using SYR, for his WC, that is in a bag, and that importer got some contaminated poop on his box, which is now smooshed up with your box spreading the contamination. You get your box, grab the poo, not even knowing its there, and then handle your new reptile who licks your hand looking for a drink and now has just been infected with a parasite.


People with Animals and business with animals, deal with animals. Those animals have parasites that can spread, from any of those people on any stage between me and you, and could have been there, and not detected. There is no world, where you can guarantee anyone their new arrival from you, is 100% not infected with parasites, or wont be upon arrival. To many hands, too many other herps around and on those hands. Just like everyone is spazzing about right now with COVID19, shipping stuff, handling money, ect.

No, I agree that you can not guarantee 100% but I do think that if you can't then there should be another option such as refund of the animal and or the option to return the animal.... Things like coccidia are very expensive to treat and deal with. Multiple fecals over months of time and multiple vet visits not to mention what you have to throw out. If the animal makes it through treatment. Etc...

I dunno this one is still a rough subject for me. And the reason I have not gotten a second cham again.

With Coccidia I learned A LOT as you know since you saw what I went through. But It is not just will the chameleon come parasite free. Then it is will it remain parasite free and that is what we do not talk about often. When they are babies they are taking down massive amounts of feeders. Crickets being most common and as we know are an easy way to get parasites. Just because you got one test when you first get your cham does not mean that if you retest in 6 months it will be parasite free still. And with coccidia being able to effect them in a slow not obvious way such as growth and reduced eating to me getting fecals done every 6 months is important. Because by the time the parasite load explodes due to a stress trigger or whatever else, then you take on a whole different war to fight. Your fighting for the chams life.

But that is just my 2 cents on the topic in relation to my experience with coccidia.

Parasites are a part of chameleon keeping. They happen even if you have the best husbandry. Some are easy to get rid of and some are not. But understanding that getting fecals done regularly is a part of overall husbandry. I think as a keeper you have to understand and know it is a risk you take on.