UV compact bulb that works

[DocZ]

I honestly just do not like the title.....

UV compact bulb that works​

I have been here long enough to see how people do not fully read or even fully understand. Hell it took me months to fully grasp and understand UVB when I was new. Most will not go buy a solarmeter. Most will see the title and go replicate it. That is where I feel we are doing wrong by others not pointing out that this should not be the go to UVB to use. We get 100's of visitors to this site each day that do not create accounts. We get newbies that create accounts and do not post because they are too scared to. So what do they do here? They read. And they try to make stuff fit their situation.

My only reason for staying in this forum over the last few years is to help newbies. I understand your point fully. I just really hate the title of the thread. When in every other thread we are telling them not to use a CFL and to get a T5HO fixture with a 5.0 or 6% bulb. To me it is very miss leading for those that do not understand enough and think they are doing it right because they read a thread about the CFL that "works"

I couldn’t agree more. And I read posts every day of people justifying inadequate or inappropriate care. Most of them also post about the next new Cham they got because the first one died or they never post again.

It is misleading. Hopefully they read far enough to learn a bit about what is actually needed and is the standard of care for chameleons. I think most threads are quickly populated with people giving solid care advice

I’ve stuck around mostly because I think Chams are fascinating creatures, but I also love the science. I’m most interested in why some care parameters work or don’t work and digging deep into issues like calcium and phosphorus homeostasis.
I also feel like there are areas in the care we recommend that need drastic improvement for long term care success for new keepers. Which is why I enjoy getting into these discussions

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Mine would hang upside down on the top screen and expose his belly to the UVB until he was almost a year old. I have about 4 inches between the top screen and T5 so the highest he can get is around 6 UVI. Did you take any measurements directly under the light just below top screen... Aka what is the highest possible reading in the cage?

Likewise, and while he's too big for ceiling climbs (he still occasionally climbs on the door), he still tries.
My 6% UVB sits less than an inch above the top screen. UVI at that point is 6-7; 3 at basking.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

And finally, I’m reluctant to completely discourage those that do it differently. I know it can be confusing for new keepers, but I would guess most, if not all of the most successful keepers, are not following all the rules. And if we discourage everything that doesn’t fit the mold, we can’t learn from these people

If the only goal here is to guide new keepers, then I suppose that’s fine. We have very good templates from the chameleon academy that can guide any new keeper. But if we want to advance knowledge, some of this sort of discussion is essential

+1.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I honestly just do not like the title.....

UV compact bulb that works​

I have been here long enough to see how people do not fully read or even fully understand. Hell it took me months to fully grasp and understand UVB when I was new. Most will not go buy a solarmeter. Most will see the title and go replicate it. That is where I feel we are doing wrong by others not pointing out that this should not be the go to UVB to use. We get 100's of visitors to this site each day that do not create accounts. We get newbies that create accounts and do not post because they are too scared to. So what do they do here? They read. And they try to make stuff fit their situation.

You have a point that many people read only until they (think they) find the answer they want to hear, and look no further. Others may read everything, but go with the advice that most closely matches what they want to hear.

We're not going to change that, and NOT discussing certain/different ideas isn't going to prevent it.

My only reason for staying in this forum over the last few years is to help newbies. I understand your point fully. I just really hate the title of the thread. When in every other thread we are telling them not to use a CFL and to get a T5HO fixture with a 5.0 or 6% bulb. To me it is very miss leading for those that do not understand enough and think they are doing it right because they read a thread about the CFL that "works"

IMO, that doesn't justify not discussing progress/innovation.
We've also had threads about LED UVBs.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/search/1606230/?q=uvb+led&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

In the long run, I think the LED UVBs will win out (VHS vs. Betamax), but a more powerful CFL may still have applications (geckos, anoles, & other smaller lizards).

 

[Mark_C]

Point taken, bad wording on my part.
Mods, can we please change the title to 'Eval of ExoTerra 26w 150 CF Bulb' or something like that?
I'd do it myself but the edit function has passed its time.
Apologies for misrepresentation.

As per the bulb, as stated, I've been using 2 Solarmeters to verify readings, dropped $250 on one and borrowed another.
I am new but I am experienced with keeping various animals and have been researching chams for about a year.
I've spent weeks analyzing the cage, not to mention close to 1k on just the setup, have been running temp and humidity checks, and ensuring the environment is as good as can be before ordering a cham, which I still don't have due to these preps.

Per the bulb, I ran tests on 6 or 7 different ones, none were acceptable aside from the ET 26w.
Was excited to share my findings with the group.

Appreciate the comments, the support, and understand the critique.
As above, more than happy to have the mods change the title as I didn't think out very well.
Just excited to be getting close to a cham and was a bit too exuberant, sorry to have offended or misled.

Once things are settled after a half year or so and my husbandry is up with the actual cham, I do plan on doing mild, researched, experienced experimentation with misting/humidity levels/LED-UV & various lighting/gut loading/supplementation/etc as I progress. I'll be a bit more reserved in my future postings.

Doc and Don, thanks for the info on the juveniles screen walking.
The level is very high under the screen (approx 40).
Though there is no access to get to the roof as I had burn concerns, I'll keep an eye out.
The second he or she gets up there I'll ditch the wait on a used unit and a new T5 will be on order.

 

[Mark_C]

This intrigues me...

6500K daylight LEDs with mild red and blue for plant growth and coloration plus a T5 slot for a UV.
Considering picking up and grabbing an Arcadia UV bulb.

https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Rept...refix=zoo+med+reptisun+led+uvb,aps,100&sr=8-3

https://zoomed.com/t5-reptisun-led-uvb-terrarium-hood/

 

[Kaizen]

So, just to keep things straight in my head: Coupling the use of a solar meter and a cfl, it is possible to get sufficient uvi numbers. The caveat is that if newcomers opt for the $10 cfl over the $60 t5, they are unlikely to invest in the $300 solar meter, which is a must when experimenting in this way. Do I have this right?

I swear I’m not being snotty, but I find reiteration to be helpful.

 

[Mark_C]

Kaiz, thats where I'm at.

The numbers I'm getting from the dome with the ET 26w bulb are decent.
They cover basking approx 1' below the light at 3.2. At the canopy level 19-22" down its fairly consistent in the cone at 1.8-2.0.
I do have a solarmeter 6.5 which has been invaluable in this.

The Solarmeter gave me the feedback needed to position the bulb properly (after figuring out the best bulb for my enclosure).
An inch or two off yielded discernable drop off in numbers.
I had to maneuver the bulb and fixture considerably, with help of the Solarmeter, to get proper numbers.

I feel that the meter, combined with a decent UV CF bulb can be adjusted to get adequate levels in a limited basking area.
Without a Solarmeter it would have been a 'Guess....Aw, you guessed wrong' situation leading to disaster. The variations between the 5.0, 10.0, 13w, 26w, 100, 150, 200, etc were nuts.

So, yes. It seems the $40 cfl with a $250 meter may work with patience and experimentation.
The $60-$80 single bulb T5 is undoubtably the option if you're not going to invest in a meter.

I have time pre-cham and am happy to experiment and learn about as much lighting as possible for my own future reference.
I now know what CFLs work and which are crap.
Also ran through 6 different T8 bulbs in a 18" Zilla fixture and wasn't impressed with any, thus the move to playing with the CFs.

Now that I'm getting drawn in, I just ordered the above mentioned ZooMed LEd-T5UV fixture (with 5.0) and have ordered the T5 versions of the ZooMed 10 as well as Arcadia 6 and 14 bulbs to test various readings from it.

 

[Kaizen]

Kaiz, thats where I'm at.

The numbers I'm getting from the dome with the ET 26w bulb are decent.
They cover basking approx 1' below the light at 3.2. At the canopy level 19-22" down its at 1.8-2.0.
I do have a solarmeter 6.5 which has been invaluable in this.
This coverage is fairly consistant in the cone 2' down from the light.

The Solarmeter was invaluable as it gave me the feedback needed to place the bulb properly (after figuring out the best bulb for my enclosure).
An inch or two off yielded discernable drop off in numbers.
I had to maneuver the bulb and fixture considerably, with help of the Solarmeter, to get proper numbers.

I feel that the meter, combined with a decent UV bulb can be adjusted to get adequate levels in a limited basking area.
Without a Solarmeter it would have been a 'Guess....Aw, you guessed wrong' situation leading to disaster.

Now that I'm getting drawn in, I just ordered the above ZooMed LEd-UV fixture.
I'll leave in the 6500 LEDs for plants and have ordered a ZooMed 5 and 10 and an Arcadia 6 and 14 to test various readings from it.

You run those tests, and disseminate your findings! That’s invaluable information. I think any pushback will simply be a matter of describing/framing your inquiry so as not to give newcomers an excuse to compromise. But stay the course! It’s great data!

 

[CasqueAbove]

Did we skip wattage ? all the charts and up till now the bulbs were 13W. Now it is 26W that is about the same as a 24in uvb. So there is no lie or magic. The just produced a higher watt bulb. The numbers are what I would expect. The difference is that compact , just by design of the hoods wont cover as much surface area. Like a spot bulb. But in my many tests with different bulbs these numbers don't surprise me at all.
I would still go linear to cover more surface. But setup right these could work, but you can hunt ducks with a .22 but a 12ga is better.

 

[Mark_C]

Casque,

The 13w CFs were all garbage at 8" down. Even directy under the lamp they were pushing, at most, 1.0.
The 26w at 8" I was reading 5.0 or better. Actually had to raise the dome 3" to get basking area at 11" down to 3.2
Note that all the published charts don't post the CF 26w options, making me think they're a bit outdated.

The overwhelming call for linear bulbs, even though 1/2 the tank will be forest edge, has led me to drop this investigation of CF bulbs.
As mentioned, I ordered a 24" LED/UV hybrid and a few different bulbs. Will see how these do in comparison.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Casque,

The 13w CFs were all garbage at 8" down. Even directy under the lamp they were pushing, at most, 1.0.
The 26w at 8" I was reading 5.0 or better. Actually had to raise the dome 3" to get basking area at 11" down to 3.2
Note that all the published charts don't post the CF 26w options, making me think they're a bit outdated.

The overwhelming call for linear bulbs, even though 1/2 the tank will be forest edge, has led me to drop this investigation of CF bulbs.
As mentioned, I ordered a 24" LED/UV hybrid and a few different bulbs. Will see how these do in comparison.

They defiantly have their place. I use MV bulbs that are more of a spot build, but this is focused on a single place where he likes to bask. I use a 48in over his main enclosure. So these would be great for extending cage boundaries. And I hate to say it but this bulb in the cham death kit that is commonly sold could make it viable till about 4 to 6 months of age. Still with proper set up.

 

[DonKeesh]

@Mark_C thanks for taking the community feedback on this topic and understanding how we sometimes have to remove nuance for newbies. Just be very careful of the 40 UVI if a cham we're to hang on top screen. I know you say it's not reachable buy I assure you a juvenile cham WILL find a way to hang upside down up there.

 

[DocZ]

@Mark_C thanks for taking the community feedback on this topic and understanding how we sometimes have to remove nuance for newbies. Just be very careful of the 40 UVI if a cham we're to hang on top screen. I know you say it's not reachable buy I assure you a juvenile cham WILL find a way to hang upside down up there.

@Mark_C i agree with Kaizen that any experiments and numbers you put together are valuable to the community. However, the extraterrestrial UVI that is available in your enclosure (40 is REALLY high) is simply dangerous to the animals health. UVB causes DNA damage at sufficient level and exposure, and when it affects the DNA sequence in genes encoded to repair DNA it leads to cancer (p53 genes are a great example). If these levels are available within a cage they will be accessed by the animals living in the cage.

Frequently 6-7 is sited as a safe UVI to allow at any point within the cage (chameleon academy, etc), but we know wild Chams have access to higher levels in certain locations and times of the day (although behaviorally they seem to hide away when they rise this high). What are the UVI levels and penetration if you raise the bulb until a UVI of 7 or even 10 is the highest available to the chameleon? This is the only safe way for your average keeper to use these without endangering their animal

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Now that I'm getting drawn in, I just ordered the above mentioned ZooMed LEd-T5UV fixture (with 5.0) and have ordered the T5 versions of the ZooMed 10 as well as Arcadia 6 and 14 bulbs to test various readings from it.

I believe at least some of that data is already available (go ahead and reproduce—just passing along).
If not from the bulb mfrs. then from Chameleon Academy and the work of Dr. Frances Baines, M.A. Vet.M.B. M.R.C.V.S.




https://reptilesmagazine.com/an-in-depth-look-at-uv-light-and-its-proper-use-with-reptiles/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm

There may be more that appears elsewhere than these links, and it may be worthwhile checking out the UK FB group she's associated with.

 

[Kaizen]

I must have missed something in this thread. When did uvi 40 come up?

 

[DocZ]

I believe at least some of that data is already available (go ahead and reproduce—just passing along).
If not from the bulb mfrs. then from Chameleon Academy and the work of Dr. Frances Baines, M.A. Vet.M.B. M.R.C.V.S.




https://reptilesmagazine.com/an-in-depth-look-at-uv-light-and-its-proper-use-with-reptiles/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm

There may be more that appears elsewhere than these links, and it may be worthwhile checking out the UK FB group she's associated with.

Her Facebook group is great

 

[DocZ]

I must have missed something in this thread. When did uvi 40 come up?

Doc and Don, thanks for the info on the juveniles screen walking.
The level is very high under the screen (approx 40).
Though there is no access to get to the roof as I had burn concerns, I'll keep an eye out.
The second he or she gets up there I'll ditch the wait on a used unit and a new T5 will be on order.

 

[Kaizen]

Her Facebook group is

Thanks, Doc!

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Her Facebook group is great

So I've heard (I don't do FB). I wouldn't be surprised if one or several people haven't already done the kinds of measurements Mark_C is contemplating, so I think it would be worth looking into—bigger sample & all.