Veiled Cham. swollen feet

[mdrossncsu]

Last night I noticed my chameleon was acting a little funny. She is about a 2 year old female Veilded Cham.

When I looked closer I noticed two of her feet were a little swollen.
Attached at the end are some pictures.

Cage Info:
* Cage Type - 2ft x 2ft x 4 ft with window screen cage.
* Lighting - one heat lamp, one florescent uva/b lamp.
* Temperature - ~90 degree basking spot, ~75 degree for cooler spots in the cage. The room is heated so temp never goes below about 70. basking light is on for ~12 hours per day.
* Humidity - dont know the exact levels. Cage is sprayed once or twice a day and there is a dripper.
* Plants - no live plants yet.
* Location - chameleon has a room to herself. no vents, no fans.


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - Veiled, female, ~2years
* Feeding - crickets, meal worms, wax worms. ~3-5 crickets/day + maybe 5-6 wax worms and 5-6 meal worms/week.
* Supplements - calcium power on the crickets
* Watering - drip once a day spray once to twice a day.
* Fecal Description - looks normal like it always has.
* History - has had no other problems.
* Current Problem - swollen feet.

 

[kinyonga]

Those feet/ankles are more than just a little swollen. Take her to a vet. It could be gout or an infection or even something else. We can only guess on the forum.

 

[Ashley]

In all my looking around on this site, that is something new to me. That looks really painful for her. I agree with Kinyonga...The vet would be the first step because it looks pretty serious

 

[mdrossncsu]

Have a couple updates:

First I took her to the vet a couple days after the original posts and he thinks it is Gout. He did an X-ray (I'll post the picture later) and is running blood work. I should get results for the blood work back this today or tomorrow.

His solution is to make sure she stays extra hydrated. I'm bumping up how often I mist, and making sure that the dripper stays full of water for the whole 12-hour day period.
The vet also wants me to give her 3-4 mils of water with a syringe a couple times a day. I think this stresses her out so I will probably start giving her 10 minute warm showers once a day instead. If she is receptive to the showers, is it a good idea or should i stick with the "force feeding".


Also went back and read my original post and saw a couple typos/added things I'm changing.

* Cage Type - 2ft x 2ft x 4 ft with window screen cage.
* Lighting - one heat lamp, one florescent uva/b lamp.
* Temperature - ~90 degree basking spot, ~75 degree for cooler spots in the cage. The room is heated so temp never goes below about 70. basking light is on for 12 hours per day.
* Humidity - don't know the exact levels. Cage is sprayed once or twice a day and there is a dripper. increasing this to 2-3 times per day
* Plants - no live plants yet. recently added a hibiscus
* Location - chameleon has a room to herself. no vents, no fans.

Chameleon Info:
* Your Chameleon - Veiled, female, ~2years
* Feeding - crickets, meal worms, wax worms. ~3-5 crickets/day + 5-6 meal worms and 5-6 wax worms/week.
* Supplements - calcium power on the crickets once a week plus reptivite powder couple times a week
Crickets are fed Flukers Orange Cube
also fed: Cricket Chow

[am i over supplementing? does the orange cube + cricket chow = too much protein?]

Also I'm going to try to add silkworms, butter worms, horn worms and phoenix worms to her diet.

* Watering - drip once a day spray once to twice a day.Increasing this to slow drip all day.
* Fecal Description - looks normal like it always has.
* History - has had no other problems.
* Current Problem - swollen feet.


What's weird to me is Gout is supposed to be extremely painful, but she will still cling onto you so tightly with the swollen feet that it feels like she will draw blood.

 

[dodolah]

as far as I know, Gout can also be caused by high phosporus ratio as to calcium.
If it is gout, his uric acid will be high in the test.
I think you are going to the right direction by introducing him much healthier feeder than mealworms and waxworms.
I think extra misting will also help since water can reduce the crystallized concentration in his blood (provided that he drink during the misting).

Sent you a PM.
I really hope your chameleon will be able to make it.

Hope that helps,


Dodolah

 

[mdrossncsu]

Update:
Vet called with blood test results. They did not show high uric acid, also no sign of infection. Still waiting on result from fecal float. The vet still thinks its gout, but now wants to do a biopsy to be sure so I'm taking her in for that.

Below is a dental x-ray of the swollen region. Vet said bone structure looked normal, no overlapping toes joint (from what you can see under the lump) looks OK.

 

[MWheelock]

I agree with your vet. The x-rays look constistent with gout. (Interesting films) Did he just test for uric acids, or did he do a panel with calcium and phosphorus? I've found that uric acid tests aren't as cut and dry as you'd like them to be.

I'm also curious about how fast this came up? If your cham is 2 years old, and you are just having this problem now, I'm curious if anything changed within the last couple months? Change place where purchasing bugs? What feed do they use (protien sources high in purines? Misting less?

As far as chams go, veiled are fairly hardy and tolerant to sub-optimal conditions. (Looking at your set up and care- I'm NOT saying you have been neglecting him at all). That being said, if he was on the edge with a few things, some minor change could have put him over the edge.

Dehydration and suboptimal temp will cause this as well. I don't know what the winter was like in your part of California, but this time of year when the heat is on really wreaks havoc on humidity levels.

If your vet has time, I'd have him radiograph the opposite leg, because though smaller, there is often some evidence of gout being in more than one joint. This would help in the diagnosis and be less invasive than a biopsy and may be more definitive.

It might also be worth your vet doing a blood smear to see if there is a high heterophil count (WBC) sugestive of infection/inflamation.

 

[dodolah]

hi Mwheelock,
in this case, what would you recommend us to do to help hasten his recovering process?
such as changing his diet, more shower, etc etc?

 

[MWheelock]

Frankly, I like chicken-laying mash as primary gut load. Fairly low in purines, good source of vitamin A. (I'm sure I'll get some differing opinions on that...). This should be supplemented with veggies and fruit.

I like silkies, superworms and roaches as the primary diet.

I think the biggest thing though would be to get a misting system for the guy. 8 minutes 3 times a day. Showers would be fine, but you'd be in the bathroom most of the day. The cage I see would take a promist system very well.

Sady, the calcified (and I'm assuming the radiolucent areas are boney accumulation) area is not really going to go away. We are more likely trying to prevent further progression. I'm not sure anyone can tell you whether visceral gout is/ or will be a problem in this cham.

As a side note. I have seen gout in one bird and one monitor (who ate primarily dog food) who developed gout in just one area of the wrist and nowhere else. I'm wondering if this one area was just more subject to attracting the precursor to urate (Monosomethingsomething- I'll have to look it up.)

Anyway, sorry about the rambling. Gotta go to bed.

Talk to y'all later,
Matthew

 

[mdrossncsu]

Hi MWheelock, let me see if I can answer some of your questions:

Husbandry questions:
I'm also curious about how fast this came up?
Just in the last few weeks, although that doesn't mean that it wasn't right on the verge of happening for a while?

I'm curious if anything changed within the last couple months?
Moved from NC to CA ~6 months ago. Through the "winter" here i had a heater on in her room so temperature never went below 60F.

Change place where purchasing bugs?
Yes, I'm in walking distance to a Petco now, so that is where i have been getting crix, meal worms, and wax worms.
In the past week I've also started ordering silkes, butter worms, and phoenix worms from mulberryfarms.com. I'm thinking about ditching crickets all together and going with roaches + the above worms. I never liked crickets they're just sort of discusting.
She doesn't seem to like silkworms so far though :-/

What feed do they use (protien sources high in purines? Misting less?
Crickets (once in my care) are fed Flukers Orange Cube and Cricket Chow
Meal worms & wax worms eat the stuff they're in, and sometimes I put a potato wedge in the cup for moisture.

Vet Questions:
If your vet has time, I'd have him radiograph the opposite leg:
He actually did all 4 legs. Two are swollen two look normal. All show some signs of build up around the ankle in the photo.
He also did a full body xray (which i didn't get a copy of :-( ). There were no signs of build up in other place that he could see.
From the full body xray we could see that she is developing a clutch of eggs (infertile, she's never seen/touched/smelled/gotten freaky with etc... another chameleon).

This would help in the diagnosis and be less invasive than a biopsy and may be more definitive.
I'm starting to think the biopsy may not be necessary...?

Did he just test for uric acids, or did he do a panel with calcium and phosphorus?
As far as I know he checked for everything. He said since she is working on some eggs some things like cholesterol and calcium showed higher than normal levels in the blood. He didn't mention phosphorus.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Nearly all the time I see gout in chameleons, the crickets are being fed fish flakes.

what you might try is severly cutting back on her feedings. I feed my females about 1/3 of what she's getting. Also, try to feed her some veggies. Hibiscus flowers wil be her favorite - don't think she's just going to let that plant sit in her cage unmolested!

 

[MWheelock]

Gout is a funny thing. In this case, my guess is the change in humitidy (slight dehydation) after the move and coupled with stress (of moving). However, I've seen chams in collections where they have everything constant. All the other chams are fine, but one gets gout.

Try to follow the instructions of the vet for supportive care, and he can still have a fairly comfortable life.

Good luck,
Matthew

 

[mdrossncsu]

So if I can't expect the swelling to go down, how can I be sure that any treatment is working?

I'm trying to look at all four of her feet every day, and I've started taking daily pictures of the two swollen feet so that I can track their progress.

 

[MWheelock]

Theoretically, you should be able to run calcium, phos, and urate levels to make sure they are not too out of whack.... but if they are normal now, it is going to be hard to quantify.

Welcome to chameleon medicine .

You just have to try and a do a good job and provide "good" husbandry. Sounds like you are doing this. Maybe inflammation around those joints will become less of an issue, but maybe not.

I know that you will not like this answer, but that's all I got.

Matthew

 

[chamlover]

Boy, You have been going through a rough time. I hope she pulls through. One thing i would like to mention, you said she is developing eggs right? Put a dirt bin in her cage so when she is ready she can dispose of them, otherwise you'll have a sick egg-bound cham on your hands. Alot of people use different things. Go into the breeding section and do some reading and then pick which one works best for you. Also it might be easier for her if you dug her hole for her considering her sore joints. Good luck.

Debby

 

[mdrossncsu]

Boy, You have been going through a rough time. I hope she pulls through. One thing i would like to mention, you said she is developing eggs right? Put a dirt bin in her cage so when she is ready she can dispose of them, otherwise you'll have a sick egg-bound cham on your hands. Alot of people use different things. Go into the breeding section and do some reading and then pick which one works best for you. Also it might be easier for her if you dug her hole for her considering her sore joints. Good luck.

Debby

Hi Debby,

Thanks for the advice. I've actually been worrying about this since she is sick. If you go to the first post and check out the picture of her cage the white tub at the bottom is there for her to lay eggs. Its smaller than what many of you have described in the breeding forum, but she's used it once before. I may dig her a sample tunnel today when I get home from work. I don't think she's close to being ready though because she's still eating and hasn't started pacing around the bottom of her cage. Mostly just sits at the basking spot, or on her new hibiscus tree. She loves that thing. She even ate a flower.



On a side note, I never got the results from a fecal float back from the vet. How long does one of those take? The vet called me with blood tests results and everything. When I was thinking gout I was worried about improper nutrition and that seems like something a parasite could cause?