Veiled Chameleon Starved?

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

Did you read the care sheets yet?

The lights you have for this chameleon are not adequate. You have no UVB lights, only a basking bulb (UVA) and a "night" light which he doesn't need. A drop in temperature is good for him.

What kind of lighting do you have for the female? She has a massive demand for calcium, much more than the male. She puts enough calcium into those eggs to last the growing babies for months.

Metabolic Bone Disease has many causes but the primary cause is nutritional combined with improper lighting. They need (phosporus-free) plain calcium in their diet. They use calcium for a lot of things, one being the functioning of muscles. They need Vitamin D3 to be able to use their dietary calcium. The best way to get D3 is from UVB either lighting or sunlight. UVB light is converted to D3 in the skin. They can also get D3 from their diet, but I wouldn't trust any reptile powder to contain what they say they do. There are no regulations or testing for human supplements.

There is a heavy demand for calcium during growth and producing eggs. If there is not enough calcium available from diet, the chameleon takes it from their bones. which is why they get weak and break or bend. Bones are not a static structure. Bone is constantly being replaced. This is a very complex problem. There is a link at the top of the Health Section written by a reptile vet which starts to explain MBD.

i do have a uvb light that's what it read on the box. I'm not that retarded for the care of my reptiles that i wouldn't know the difference between a UVB and Basking bulb. I also have the same for her but since they don't need their night light (which it seems they like it because they position right under it and fall asleep but hey i was wrong before).

 

[Chameleomom]

I think where the confusion is coming from about the lighting is you posted in the help sheet that...."Lighting - The lighting brand is zoo-med dual lights. On the dual one bulb is UVA and the other is a night bulb.

A UVA and a UVB are two different lights...so if what you said in the help sheet is what you have you need a UVB bulb ASAP Throw away the night bulb

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

I think where the confusion is coming from about the lighting is you posted in the help sheet that...."Lighting - The lighting brand is zoo-med dual lights. On the dual one bulb is UVA and the other is a night bulb.

A UVA and a UVB are two different lights...so if what you said in the help sheet is what you have you need a UVB bulb ASAP Throw away the night bulb

If i accidently said i had UVA, my fault. I have UVB.

 

[Chameleomom]

Cool no problem. I would install it long ways over the cage, if your lighting fixture lets you do that. You will get a lot better coverage.

 

[jajeanpierre]

i do have a uvb light that's what it read on the box. I'm not that retarded for the care of my reptiles that i wouldn't know the difference between a UVB and Basking bulb. I also have the same for her but since they don't need their night light (which it seems they like it because they position right under it and fall asleep but hey i was wrong before).

That was uncalled for. I was only reading what you wrote. YOU were the one who mentioned only UVA.

Here's what you wrote.

• Lighting - The lighting brand is zoo-med dual lights. On the dual one bulb is UVA and the other is a night bulb. From 6 a.m to 8 p.m i turn on the day bulb. From 8 p.m to 6 a.m i turn on the night bulb.

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

Cool no problem. I would install it long ways over the cage, if your lighting fixture lets you do that. You will get a lot better coverage.

ya that's how i have it.

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

That was uncalled for. I was only reading what you wrote. YOU were the one who mentioned only UVA.

Here's what you wrote.

• Lighting - The lighting brand is zoo-med dual lights. On the dual one bulb is UVA and the other is a night bulb. From 6 a.m to 8 p.m i turn on the day bulb. From 8 p.m to 6 a.m i turn on the night bulb.

I just said i accidently said UVA. I would edit it but don't know how.

 

[Chameleomom]

Awesome. I hope for the best with your two babies and please let us know what the vet says. These guys and girls are truly amazing animals

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

Awesome. I hope for the best with your two babies and please let us know what the vet says. These guys and girls are truly amazing animals

thanks and i will

 

[Chameleomom]

It's ok it was a typing error .If you look where you post there are two boxes at the bottom on the left one says edit and the other report. On the right they say quote, reply and like

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

It's ok it was a typing error .If you look where you post there are two boxes at the bottom on the left one says edit and the other report. On the right they say quote and reply and like

it just says report.

 

[VeiledMathis]

I bought him from his previous owner now a little over 24 hours ago. In the pictures, he didn't look bad he actually looked a little plump. Anyway when we were in the car heading home we checked him out and seen he was very skinny. So, first thought? Starvation. I mean i never even thought of any disease being wrong with him. And I have everything for him except for the vitamins because i was told by a pet store that was only if they needed extra and said it could hurt them with his UVB light because he gets vitamins from it. i didn't question it b/c you'd think they know what they're doing. The guy who owned him before me only had him for around a month. How he didn't notice how skinny he is irks my nerves but i guess i should've known as well with his legs. But he has such vibrant colors that i paid attention to his colors rather than what i probably should've looked at. When i found out it was MBD i started reading on it and wanted to cry because it meant he was going through this for months. I think the very first person who owned him sold him to the guy before us knowing he was sick. And what you're saying i'm saying. i haven't had him for very long. But I seen something was off along with other relatives which we thought was starvation, so i did come here for help and advice but i didn't think he'd have MBD either. But now that i do know i'm going to take him to the vet and take my female just to be safe and get them checked out.

Try and get xrays on both, just to check both of your Veiled bone density for MBD and to see if the female has eggs ready.

 

[Chameleomom]

It's when you type a new post not reply to one

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

Try and get xrays on both, just to check both of your Veiled bone density for MBD and to see if the female has eggs ready.

Ya,i was reading on that and wanted to tell the vet that.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Cool no problem. I would install it long ways over the cage, if your lighting fixture lets you do that. You will get a lot better coverage.

@masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ That bulb does not penetrate very far down into the cage from the bulb, maybe 14" when brand new and gets weaker over time. Plus the screen on top blocks a lot of light.

Masterpiece, can you put his and her cages safely outside where they won't cook in the sun but they can get morning sunlight? Cages, even screen cages, can build up a lot of heat as the black frame absorbs heat from the sun. It happens quickly. Just make sure they have access to shade. Put the cages away from surfaces that build up and radiate heat. Under trees is good as trees keep the air cool. Natural sun is much better than any UVB light you can buy.

You do have them in separtate cages so they can't ever see each other? Chameleons get very stressed when they see each other and it can also trigger the female to produce eggs, which you do not want. As I mentioned earlier, stress suppresses the immune system. Moving homes is stressful. Being handled is stressful. Being in pain is stressful (unless his MBD is completely healed--and I doubt it--he is in tremendous pain from broken/bent bones).

Don't force feed him by making him angry and gaping. He doesn't need that stress.

Your original post was about him being too skinny. Veiled males have a knack for looking pretty skinny--they are almost shape shifters they way they will flatten out. Reptiles do not build up fat under their skin all over their bodies the way mammals do. They don't have a need for an insulation layer to conserve body heat the way a warm blooded animal does. They have fat bodies where they store fat, the main (only???) fat body is in their belly. Dehydration often looks like an animal is too thin. When an animal is dehydrated, the skin loses its elasticity and "plumpness." Learning what a dehydrated chameleon looks like is a learned skill. Urate color (white being good and yellow/orange showing dehydration) is only one part of it. I tend to look and at the skin over the spine/pelvis and see if they look skinny--if you can see the definition of the spine, muscles, bones. Your male is a bit of a mess, so he has a lot of different issues going on. Mist him like crazy. They don't drink from a bowl. I never see my chameleons drinking unless they've just laid eggs, so don't rely on your not seeing him drink to him being hydrated.

They don't need night lights. They have a third eye so have some vision even when their eyes are closed. Constant light is stressful. They also need a drop in temperatures at night. A night light is just a heat bulb of some kind. Veileds come from the escarpments along the western edge of the Arabian Peninsula, primarily Yemen. It goes down to freezing in some places where they are native. I wouldn't recommend temps into the 40s for a veiled at night, but they should do just fine with those kinds of temps at night as long as they can warm up in the day.

You might not have created this mess, but you are now stuck with cleaning it up. Your male is likely critically ill, which is why I originally responded so bluntly. I understand you don't yet see this.

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

@masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ That bulb does not penetrate very far down into the cage from the bulb, maybe 14" when brand new and gets weaker over time. Plus the screen on top blocks a lot of light.

Masterpiece, can you put his and her cages safely outside where they won't cook in the sun but they can get morning sunlight? Cages, even screen cages, can build up a lot of heat as the black frame absorbs heat from the sun. It happens quickly. Just make sure they have access to shade. Put the cages away from surfaces that build up and radiate heat. Under trees is good as trees keep the air cool. Natural sun is much better than any UVB light you can buy.

You do have them in separtate cages so they can't ever see each other? Chameleons get very stressed when they see each other and it can also trigger the female to produce eggs, which you do not want. As I mentioned earlier, stress suppresses the immune system. Moving homes is stressful. Being handled is stressful. Being in pain is stressful (unless his MBD is completely healed--and I doubt it--he is in tremendous pain from broken/bent bones).

Don't force feed him by making him angry and gaping. He doesn't need that stress.

Your original post was about him being too skinny. Veiled males have a knack for looking pretty skinny--they are almost shape shifters they way they will flatten out. Reptiles do not build up fat under their skin all over their bodies the way mammals do. They don't have a need for an insulation layer to conserve body heat the way a warm blooded animal does. They have fat bodies where they store fat, the main (only???) fat body is in their belly. Dehydration often looks like an animal is too thin. When an animal is dehydrated, the skin loses its elasticity and "plumpness." Learning what a dehydrated chameleon looks like is a learned skill. Urate color (white being good and yellow/orange showing dehydration) is only one part of it. I tend to look and at the skin over the spine/pelvis and see if they look skinny--if you can see the definition of the spine, muscles, bones. Your male is a bit of a mess, so he has a lot of different issues going on. Mist him like crazy. They don't drink from a bowl. I never see my chameleons drinking unless they've just laid eggs, so don't rely on your not seeing him drink to him being hydrated.

They don't need night lights. They have a third eye so have some vision even when their eyes are closed. Constant light is stressful. They also need a drop in temperatures at night. A night light is just a heat bulb of some kind. Veileds come from the escarpments along the western edge of the Arabian Peninsula, primarily Yemen. It goes down to freezing in some places where they are native. I wouldn't recommend temps into the 40s for a veiled at night, but they should do just fine with those kinds of temps at night as long as they can warm up in the day.

You might not have created this mess, but you are now stuck with cleaning it up. Your male is likely critically ill, which is why I originally responded so bluntly. I understand you don't yet see this.

I do see this and as i would have liked for him not to have it (because of all the pain) i'd rather clean up the mess than expecting someone else do it considering we've seen what that has done. At least i know i will clean it up to my best possibilities.

 

[Twitchet]

Masterpiece, I wish you and your chameleons the best and hope you'll post pics when they are better, best of luck

 

[masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ]

@masterpieceᕙ(◕ᴥ◕)ᕗ That bulb does not penetrate very far down into the cage from the bulb, maybe 14" when brand new and gets weaker over time. Plus the screen on top blocks a lot of light.

Masterpiece, can you put his and her cages safely outside where they won't cook in the sun but they can get morning sunlight? Cages, even screen cages, can build up a lot of heat as the black frame absorbs heat from the sun. It happens quickly. Just make sure they have access to shade. Put the cages away from surfaces that build up and radiate heat. Under trees is good as trees keep the air cool. Natural sun is much better than any UVB light you can buy.

You do have them in separtate cages so they can't ever see each other? Chameleons get very stressed when they see each other and it can also trigger the female to produce eggs, which you do not want. As I mentioned earlier, stress suppresses the immune system. Moving homes is stressful. Being handled is stressful. Being in pain is stressful (unless his MBD is completely healed--and I doubt it--he is in tremendous pain from broken/bent bones).

Don't force feed him by making him angry and gaping. He doesn't need that stress.

Your original post was about him being too skinny. Veiled males have a knack for looking pretty skinny--they are almost shape shifters they way they will flatten out. Reptiles do not build up fat under their skin all over their bodies the way mammals do. They don't have a need for an insulation layer to conserve body heat the way a warm blooded animal does. They have fat bodies where they store fat, the main (only???) fat body is in their belly. Dehydration often looks like an animal is too thin. When an animal is dehydrated, the skin loses its elasticity and "plumpness." Learning what a dehydrated chameleon looks like is a learned skill. Urate color (white being good and yellow/orange showing dehydration) is only one part of it. I tend to look and at the skin over the spine/pelvis and see if they look skinny--if you can see the definition of the spine, muscles, bones. Your male is a bit of a mess, so he has a lot of different issues going on. Mist him like crazy. They don't drink from a bowl. I never see my chameleons drinking unless they've just laid eggs, so don't rely on your not seeing him drink to him being hydrated.

They don't need night lights. They have a third eye so have some vision even when their eyes are closed. Constant light is stressful. They also need a drop in temperatures at night. A night light is just a heat bulb of some kind. Veileds come from the escarpments along the western edge of the Arabian Peninsula, primarily Yemen. It goes down to freezing in some places where they are native. I wouldn't recommend temps into the 40s for a veiled at night, but they should do just fine with those kinds of temps at night as long as they can warm up in the day.

You might not have created this mess, but you are now stuck with cleaning it up. Your male is likely critically ill, which is why I originally responded so bluntly. I understand you don't yet see this.

also i will take them out right now out back where the sun shines and there's some shade

 

[jajeanpierre]

also i will take them out right now out back where the sun shines and there's some shade

Just watch the heat. It can happen suddenly as the sun moves across the sky. Make sure you keep misting the cage. When I have my chameleons outside, I will soak the cage often with the hose using the mist nozzle.

Do you have plain phosphorus-free calcium? How about phosphorus-free calcium WITH D3?

Until he is seen by a vet, I would just give him plain calcium. This problem didn't happen over night and won't be solved quickly.

I expect the vet to give him a calcium injection (make sure their is a lot of fluids with the calcium) plus vitamins. They are probably both deficient in Vitamin A (most pet chameleons are, by the way) which comes with a few other things in it like D3 and Vitamin E. Maybe a vitamin B-complex shot as well.

What kind of feeding bugs do you have? Crickets are easy to find at any pet store and are a staple for most breeders/owners. They have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio and are pretty much devoid of Vitamin A. Chameleons cannot convert Beta Carotene (the precursor of Vitamin A found in plants) to Vitamin A, so the reptile vitamins containing only Beta Carotene do not provide any Vitamin A. Feed your crickets really super healthy food, not the Flukers garbage you can buy. It's going to be a steep learning curve for you and I feel sorry for you that you are getting so much thrown at you at once. To give calcium powder to your chameleon, put some calcium in a bag or container, add some bugs and gently shake them, then just release the bugs into the cage. I wouldn't worry about over dosing powdered calcium. The gut can only absorb so much so it will just pass through without being absorbed if you give too much. The liquid calcium the vet gives is a little different, so you want to be sure to give only the amount the vet prescribes.

Please try to find a good reptile vet. Call around.

These Craig's List chameleons are going to cost you and I am sorry. I know it isn't fair. You will learn a tremendous amount about keeping chameleons working with these two, more than you would ever learn if they came to you as healthy perfectly cared for animals.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I do see this and as i would have liked for him not to have it (because of all the pain) i'd rather clean up the mess than expecting someone else do it considering we've seen what that has done. At least i know i will clean it up to my best possibilities.

I have a lot of pretty battered up wild caught chameleons (I work with a very rare species that hasn't been bred in the US). I am very protective of them because of all they have gone through to get into my hands. I understand how you will feel about making it right for him.

But please, heed my advice and don't handle him.

To take him to the vet, just put them in some sort of little box. Separate boxes for each of course. Put in a little towel or paper towels for padding. I will twist a few paper towels into a little rope and wrap that paper towel rope around the bottom of the little container. You do not want him to be jostled or have to suddenly grab to keep his balance. Make sure the box is secure--I've taped boxed shut. If you are using something like a shoe box, you definitely want the top taped shut (bring extra tape to the vet). You can punch a few holes in the side with a screw driver before you put them in their boxes. I use little plastic totes made by Sterlite that are about 6 or 7 inches tall and 11 inches or so long with snaps on the ends that keep the top on securely (with holes of course). I then put that box in a dark bag or put a dark towel over top. I keep them in the dark until the vet comes in the room to examine them. I won't let the vet tech get weights ahead of time--too much stress pulling them out of the box repeatedly. When the vet is finished looking at them, I put them back in the box and back into the dark.