Veiled Izzy not doing good
- Thread starter Mesnik
- Start date
Kat77
New Member
I don't actually agree that most with MBD don't come back from it. Provided the animal is given the proper care in a timely fashion, I think most victims of MBD do survive.
I hope Izzy is one of them! He is a beautiful boy.
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blackbetty
Guest
Really? Then maybe its just me reading the threads on here where they have been "diagnosed" with MBD and soon die. Shrug. I dont know statistics, I just know when someone delivers MBD as a diagnosis, its usually "sorry bud".. but its not the case here so Yay!!
dodolah
Retired Moderator
I am perplexed!
Since you got the right light and the right supplement... This is a warrant to investigate what exactly going on in your husbandry.
how old is the uvb bulb?
did your veiled love eating leafy matters? Did you give him things like broccoli and spinach?
Do you ever at one time have pothos inside the cage?
my only suspicion is that he always have mild mbd b4 (the bend of the front arm looked a little bit bowed to me).
Then, he accidentally fell and land on both of his back leg.
Since you got the right light and the right supplement... This is a warrant to investigate what exactly going on in your husbandry.
how old is the uvb bulb?
did your veiled love eating leafy matters? Did you give him things like broccoli and spinach?
Do you ever at one time have pothos inside the cage?
my only suspicion is that he always have mild mbd b4 (the bend of the front arm looked a little bit bowed to me).
Then, he accidentally fell and land on both of his back leg.
Mesnik
New Member
Thanks Kat77.
Dodolah - in fact, I forgot to mention that I do have a pot of pothos there! He took some bites of them along with the schefflera here and there but not much. And I never really gave him any leafs, fruits or anything directly. Some yes via gut-loadig but that's it.
I am on my 3rd UVB bulb. As I have a fishtank, I am used to change them every 6 mos...
I feel really bad. I wish I could pin point what went wrong.
I am more reliefed that he is taking pain killer now...
It was funny at the vet. As he is never handled by anybody, and I handle him very little, he didn't like when the vet grabbed him for XR and blood!!!
When he came back, I would take him and start "scratching" his nose... he closes his mouth and eyes quickly and relaxes... Very weird to see that recognition!!
Dodolah - in fact, I forgot to mention that I do have a pot of pothos there! He took some bites of them along with the schefflera here and there but not much. And I never really gave him any leafs, fruits or anything directly. Some yes via gut-loadig but that's it.
I am on my 3rd UVB bulb. As I have a fishtank, I am used to change them every 6 mos...
I feel really bad. I wish I could pin point what went wrong.
I am more reliefed that he is taking pain killer now...
It was funny at the vet. As he is never handled by anybody, and I handle him very little, he didn't like when the vet grabbed him for XR and blood!!!
When he came back, I would take him and start "scratching" his nose... he closes his mouth and eyes quickly and relaxes... Very weird to see that recognition!!
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blackbetty
Guest
You know..Im just gonna share what I was told and not sure if this is behind yours.. I thought when I held mine and she "went to sleep" on me it was a sign of relaxation and comfort. I was quickly told that I was wrong.. Put much nicer of course "Dont want to bust your bubble" I think were his words. LOL.. He told me that the cham closing eyes and relaxing is essentially giving up and preparing itself to be eaten by the bigger monster "you"...Not sure if that applies here but just in case because if it does, Im sure its adding stress. My Leo did this yesterday..right AFTER HE BIT ME!
Its so hard to distinguish good from bad or unknown sometimes.
Kat77
New Member
Mesnik, were you saying that you often use items like broccoli and spinach in your gutload? I think Frans (Dodolah) was asking because those items are known to actively block calcium absorption. What exactly were you using in your gutload?
I'm not sure what he was getting at about the pothos, however, I'm sure he will be back to comment.
I'm not sure what he was getting at about the pothos, however, I'm sure he will be back to comment.
dodolah
Retired Moderator
pothos also has high calcium oxallate (just like spinach and broccoli).
If your chameleon munch on pothos aggressively, i gather it can contribute to the problem.
and I agree with Brad.
From the look of the position of the uvb (so close to the edge), it seems to me that he has no access to uvb in addition that the heat lamp is far on the other edge. Without any vine or spot for him to bask under the uvb, he would probably got "confused" and bask under the heat lamp more often.
I am not sure if this is scientifically evident or not, but I base it on the excerpt from Dr. Gary Ferguson:
"If the chameleon fails to do this, I think it is because some artificial light sources confuse them. When the UVB source is in one part of the cage and visible light and heat is in another, they may have trouble judging the proper exposure."
http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/chat-with-dr-gary-w-ferguson.html
Due to this, I always put my uvb and uva in close proximity with each other.
So, when my cham is basking under the heat light, he is also exposed to the uvb light.
If your chameleon munch on pothos aggressively, i gather it can contribute to the problem.
and I agree with Brad.
From the look of the position of the uvb (so close to the edge), it seems to me that he has no access to uvb in addition that the heat lamp is far on the other edge. Without any vine or spot for him to bask under the uvb, he would probably got "confused" and bask under the heat lamp more often.
I am not sure if this is scientifically evident or not, but I base it on the excerpt from Dr. Gary Ferguson:
"If the chameleon fails to do this, I think it is because some artificial light sources confuse them. When the UVB source is in one part of the cage and visible light and heat is in another, they may have trouble judging the proper exposure."
http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/chat-with-dr-gary-w-ferguson.html
Due to this, I always put my uvb and uva in close proximity with each other.
So, when my cham is basking under the heat light, he is also exposed to the uvb light.
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IMHO from the look of the cage, he couldn't get close enough to the UVB light or the basking lights. The combination of not having enough UVB and not being able to get warm enough to digest his food properly likely played a part in this. It could be that his calcium levels weren't quite bad enough that his bones broke from just walking around but a fall would have been enough to break them all. I notice that you said the basking temp is 85F...but is that where he could sit or what??
What exactly did you gutload with? Any commercial products ("roach" gutload) that you used for gutloading, what do they have in them in the way of D3, preformed vitamin A, calcium and phosphorous?
Re: Supplements - You said..."Was dusting every day up to 1 year old using Rept-Cal +D3 three times a week"...this might have been helping him at that point. Was he in the same cage then?
BlackBetty...Some of the chameleons reported on this forum with MBD are reported rather late in the process...and that's why they don't always survive. Unfortunately, calcium plays a part in other things than bone health (such as muscle contractions, nerves, etc.) and that plays a part in whether they can recover or not.
What exactly did you gutload with? Any commercial products ("roach" gutload) that you used for gutloading, what do they have in them in the way of D3, preformed vitamin A, calcium and phosphorous?
Re: Supplements - You said..."Was dusting every day up to 1 year old using Rept-Cal +D3 three times a week"...this might have been helping him at that point. Was he in the same cage then?
BlackBetty...Some of the chameleons reported on this forum with MBD are reported rather late in the process...and that's why they don't always survive. Unfortunately, calcium plays a part in other things than bone health (such as muscle contractions, nerves, etc.) and that plays a part in whether they can recover or not.
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blackbetty
Guest
I know that the majority of those that develop MBD had been going for a while unnoticed and due to poor husbandry (not necessarily from current owner).
Do you know if there is any truth behind what I was told about "closing their eyes and preparing themselves to be eaten" rather than being mistaken for relaxation?
Do you know if there is any truth behind what I was told about "closing their eyes and preparing themselves to be eaten" rather than being mistaken for relaxation?
Mesnik
New Member
kinyonga - When I came back today from work, after giving him his dose of liquid calcium (which was another story! He doesn't hiss at me or open his mouth, so luckily there was no one around to hear me begging him to open it wide!!), I set by the cage to think about the location of the UVB light, like you mentioned... And I think at this point I also agree with you. I now realize that there isn't really a "basking" spot for him to take the UVB. I didn't have it clear in my head that the UVB also needed to be at a basking spot-like.
As far as the 85F temp, yes, that is right at his basking sitting spot. My thermometers' probes are right on the wood where his feet would grab...
Blackbetty - in the process of trying to give his calcium today, I had him on my hands and he wasn't fussing at all. And I did the scratching nose thing and he just closed his eye and seemed to enjoy. I don't know, would be interested to find out. Today I did that to try to get his mouth opened...
I will report more tomorrow...
As far as the 85F temp, yes, that is right at his basking sitting spot. My thermometers' probes are right on the wood where his feet would grab...
Blackbetty - in the process of trying to give his calcium today, I had him on my hands and he wasn't fussing at all. And I did the scratching nose thing and he just closed his eye and seemed to enjoy. I don't know, would be interested to find out. Today I did that to try to get his mouth opened...
I will report more tomorrow...
Mesnik
New Member
Some good news today...
I have Izzy on a plastic tub (20 gal) so he doesn't climb, and after trying to cup feed him without success, I dumped 3 crickets (yes, dusted!!) in there and he used his long tongue very efficiently!! I dumped 2 more and he didn't waste time.
I gave his liquid Ca along with the pain killer and also a nice "bath".
It will be a long 2 month ahead for him but I think as long as he eats!!!
I have Izzy on a plastic tub (20 gal) so he doesn't climb, and after trying to cup feed him without success, I dumped 3 crickets (yes, dusted!!) in there and he used his long tongue very efficiently!! I dumped 2 more and he didn't waste time.
I gave his liquid Ca along with the pain killer and also a nice "bath".
It will be a long 2 month ahead for him but I think as long as he eats!!!
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy Roberto,
I just had a chance to read this thread. When he is eventually able to return to his large enclosure (36x36x48), I think you'll be able to improve his level of UVB exposure by either ensuring that he is basking at 6"-12" away from the Reptisun 5.0 18" tube or by changing to as much as a pair of 48" Reptisun 5.0 tubes in order to push more UVB wider and also deeper, yet without the dangers of excessive UVB. The nice thing is that those 48" tubes are still only $14 each at LLL Reptile (http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-48-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/). If you do ever use a 48" fixture (T12 size tubes), you can increase the UVB directed downward either by using a shiny aluminum fixture or by covering the fixture surface with aluminum foil or using aluminum tape (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100030120) used for heat ducts (Home Depot).
I just had a chance to read this thread. When he is eventually able to return to his large enclosure (36x36x48), I think you'll be able to improve his level of UVB exposure by either ensuring that he is basking at 6"-12" away from the Reptisun 5.0 18" tube or by changing to as much as a pair of 48" Reptisun 5.0 tubes in order to push more UVB wider and also deeper, yet without the dangers of excessive UVB. The nice thing is that those 48" tubes are still only $14 each at LLL Reptile (http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-48-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/)
. If you do ever use a 48" fixture (T12 size tubes), you can increase the UVB directed downward either by using a shiny aluminum fixture or by covering the fixture surface with aluminum foil or using aluminum tape (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100030120) used for heat ducts (Home Depot).
