Veiled killed his first live plant

[MissSkittles]

With all that been said still concerns me somewhat guess it's one of them it wont kill your cham but unknown if it harms or its long term effects. It's use in chameleon enclosures is more to do with its hardiness to survive without having to provide additional lighting & vining properties with a bonus air purifier (which worries me further as what does it pull out of the air and how is that processed within the plant).
OP says it has killed the plant as in eaten most of it, the thread of toxicology just shared leads to a prognosis that too much consumption of the oxylates bound with calcium can lead to renal failure- which can be known as an issue with chameleons in captivity (ould there be a link) i guess it a risk upto the individual keeper to make, like not having a thermostat to stop your cham burning itself.are we sure its not doing harm allowing it eat it guess that's why it is still an ongoing debate . Think I'll stay on the side of for non plant eating species only. But ive never kept a veiled and i certainly haven't done experiments on them to draw my conclusion

Well, we need to provide our veileds with plants and artificial ones are too risky as they have been known to eat them. In the wild they eat whatever plants are native, however they only live less than a year. If there is a plant that is better than pothos and others listed as safe for veileds, we don’t know about it. As for renal failure, I have been wondering about types of water that people use. When we review husbandry, we never ask about the water. The keeper that hasn’t a clue about correct uvb, supplements and the like is most likely to be using plain tap water which who knows what that contains.

 

[jacksonchamnew]

Thanks @Beman!

@jacksonchamnew is your veiled a male for sure?
It's more usual for females to strip pothos bare.

Also, so I don't have to look back through your old posts, what supplements do you use for the veiled?

I have the Repticalcium without D3 that I use everyday. I have Rep Cal Herptivite for once a week.

 

[DocZ]

With all that been said still concerns me somewhat guess it's one of them it wont kill your cham but unknown if it harms or its long term effects. It's use in chameleon enclosures is more to do with its hardiness to survive without having to provide additional lighting & vining properties with a bonus air purifier (which worries me further as what does it pull out of the air and how is that processed within the plant).
OP says it has killed the plant as in eaten most of it, the thread of toxicology just shared leads to a prognosis that too much consumption of the oxylates bound with calcium can lead to renal failure- which can be known as an issue with chameleons in captivity (ould there be a link) i guess it a risk upto the individual keeper to make, like not having a thermostat to stop your cham burning itself.are we sure its not doing harm allowing it eat it guess that's why it is still an ongoing debate . Think I'll stay on the side of for non plant eating species only. But ive never kept a veiled and i certainly haven't done experiments on them to draw my conclusion

I appreciate your concerns with this issue. In the thread that @kinyonga supplied the post implied that plants with calcium oxalate crystals, pothos and others, should not allow very much absorption of the oxalates and thus shouldn’t cause build up in the kidneys.

 

[Pickle-cham]

Im happy to hear your success and other species of reptiles do eat pothos without ill effects. And im sure there is many others with similar experience. Maybe they eat it to purposely block up there stomach for producing smelly mouth secretion they rub up against branches to attract pray, or the roughage theory seems plausible like chameleon fibre? anyways I'm looking it as a risk factor. And pothos isnt from the yemans natural range but is probably the easiest plant to keep ali.

Well, we need to provide our veileds with plants and artificial ones are too risky as they have been known to eat them. In the wild they eat whatever plants are native, however they only live less than a year. If there is a plant that is better than pothos and others listed as safe for veileds, we don’t know about it. As for renal failure, I have been wondering about types of water that people use. When we review husbandry, we never ask about the water. The keeper that hasn’t a clue about correct uvb, supplements and the like is most likely to be using plain tap water which who knows what that contains.

I was thinking this last night i was close to starting a thread about supplements and if you have hard water (high calcium hardness) would this effect the supplement requirements?

 

[Pickle-cham]

I appreciate your concerns with this issue. In the thread that @kinyonga supplied the post implied that plants with calcium oxalate crystals, pothos and others, should not allow very much absorption of the oxalates and thus shouldn’t cause build up in the kidneys.

"Long term consequence-) If an animal doesn't ingest enough oxalic acid to cause hypocalcemia, but does continually over time ingest the toxic plant (darn stubborn stupid animal), the crystalized calcium oxalate in the bloodstream gets caught in the kidneys who are trying to filter the blood. Since the crystals are to big to pass through the nephrons, they accumulate, and destroy kidney function. After 70+% of kidney function is gone, you will see renal failure which cannot be fixed and will continue to get worse." Quoted from 2006 thread still implies to me there is a risk how many plants would they need to consume might be like asking how many cigarettes would it take to kill me ?

 

[Beman]

I have the Repticalcium without D3 that I use everyday. I have Rep Cal Herptivite for once a week.

I prefer other vitamins... I would switch out the herptivite for reptivite with D3 and only give this 2 times a month every other week. The calcium without D3 at all other feedings.

 

[Pickle-cham]

Still been thinking about this and maybe veileds arent really affected but not immune to the raphides/crystal in plants because they clean tear the leaves and dont break down the matter. So minimal oxalate crystals are released compared to say when an animal eats plants for nutrition they usually break down the leaves by chewing it?

 

[DocZ]

Still been thinking about this and maybe veileds arent really affected but not immune to the raphides/crystal in plants because they clean tear the leaves and dont break down the matter. So minimal oxalate crystals are released compared to say when an animal eats plants for nutrition they usually break down the leaves by chewing it?

I think this is a reasonable explanation for this. Many herbivorous and omnivorous animals will have bacteria that live in their gut that help process and increase bioavailability of certain plant nutrients. I suspect chameleons wouldn’t have as many of these since plants aren’t a major source of nutrition for them

 

[jacksonchamnew]

I think it would be nice to know the species of ornamental plants where veileds live. Could get a better idea of what they eat in the wild. I think Pothos may be South America.

 

[Pickle-cham]

Yl

I think it would be nice to know the species of ornamental plants where veileds live. Could get a better idea of what they eat in the wild. I think Pothos may be South America.

French Polynesia i believe, invasive everywhere else and one of the if not most common houseplant. Apparently doesnt flower untill its 30ft long?

 

[Pickle-cham]

I think it would be nice to know the species of ornamental plants where veileds live. Could get a better idea of what they eat in the wild. I think Pothos may be South America.

Most plants in Yemen are phanerophytes, and the main genera are Commiphora, Ficus and Acacia. 55% of the endemic species belong to the Asclepiadaceae and are succulents such as Huernia. The Euphorbiaceae family provides 33% of the endemic species. There are also some endemic Liliaceae.
Taken straight off google, i would have thought more palms myself like dracaena but my views of this region of the world is probably skewed somewhat do to politics & with yeman being a bit of a reclusive nation.
Wonder what trees the Chamaeleo calyptratus prefers to chill in

 

[kinyonga]

Most plants in Yemen are phanerophytes, and the main genera are Commiphora, Ficus and Acacia. 55% of the endemic species belong to the Asclepiadaceae and are succulents such as Huernia. The Euphorbiaceae family provides 33% of the endemic species. There are also some endemic Liliaceae.
Taken straight off google, i would have thought more palms myself like dracaena but my views of this region of the world is probably skewed somewhat do to politics & with yeman being a bit of a reclusive nation.
Wonder what trees the Chamaeleo calyptratus prefers to chill in

Petr Necas has said what plants the veileds eat a few times in his videos....I just can't find it right now. I think it's acacia and one other.

Once again...@Pickle-cham ...all I can tell you is that my female veileds used to strip every pothos bare and they lived to be at least 6 and almost always over 7 years of age....the autopsies never showed that they died with renal failure. How much longer do you think yours will live without the pothos?

Also...in humans, the loop of henele is one place calcium oxalate crystals form in the kidneys...chameleons lack the loop of henle....so I wonder what that means regarding oxalates?

 

[Pickle-cham]

Petr Necas has said what plants the veileds eat a few times in his videos....I just can't find it right now. I think it's acacia and one other.

Once again...@Pickle-cham ...all I can tell you is that my female veileds used to strip every pothos bare and they lived to be at least 6 and almost always over 7 years of age....the autopsies never showed that they died with renal failure. How much longer do you think yours will live without the pothos?

Also...in humans, the loop of henele is one place calcium oxalate crystals form in the kidneys...chameleons lack the loop of henle....so I wonder what that means regarding oxalates?

Im getting none plant eating species next week so wont be worried about this happening. Im not denying that that veiled may have the ability to process these and plant matter after all the are probably the most divergent evolution of all reptiles.
And have the utmost respect for kinyonga definitely see you on a lot of threads spanning bk decades on here so not doubting your experience in this matter.
Just dont feel it's fully understood even though yemen chameleons are probably the most studied in lab reptile as to why and how they eat vegetation. Is it to neutralise build up from their diet maybe or to colonize bacteria for digestive reasons or plain nutrition. Im looking for studies to learn about it though think its so interesting, dont suppose you know where a detailed anatomy of the veiled can be found? With internal organs the ones im finding are too simplistic.

 

[Pickle-cham]

And if acacia there favourite tree perhaps they just getting high? as they seem to be high in a phsycho-active alkaloids

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."kinyonga definitely see you on a lot of threads spanning bk decades on here so not doubting your experience in this matter"...decades eh! Now I feel so old!

It's not fully understood why veiled chameleon females will strip a pothos bare for sure and why wild ones eat leaves for sure wither. There could be more than one reason for eating them as well.
Could be a need for nutrients (if the chameleon can digest some types) or an attempt to provide roughage or even an attempt to rid itself of parasites. Could be something to do with the good gut bacteria needed...or something else even. More studies are needed.

Regarding anatomy...I'll see what I can find...

 

[Pickle-cham]

I didn't mean it to offend just to reassure op that your vastly more experienced and that your advice would be better to follow on. He has a male i believe just wanted to let them know it a bit of a grey area as far as plant safe lists go thats for sure, but first hand experience trumps theory anyday and he can hope for a long lived lizard even with he's strange plant habits ?

 

[kinyonga]

I didn't mean it to offend just to reassure op that your vastly more experienced and that your advice would be better to follow on. He has a male i believe just wanted to let them know it a bit of a grey area as far as plant safe lists go thats for sure, but first hand experience trumps theory anyday and he can hope for a long lived lizard even with he's strange plant habits ?

Sorry no luck with the anatomy right now. If I remember, I'll look again tomorrow. Remind me if I don't...ok!
You didn't offend me...I was just teasing!

 

[Pickle-cham]

What i have found is they have 3 phases of kidneys first set thought to remains of evolution and unused, 2 set conectected in use with sex organs then 3 set that you speak of which indeed lacks a u bend for want of the better word and is their primary kidneys.
Makes sense that what could explain the oxalates not building (like kidney stones in us) due to the straight through and not like deposits on a meandering river

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry...still no luck on the anatomy sites.

 

[DocZ]

Sorry...still no luck on the anatomy sites.

Does anyone have this text?

Was thinking about picking it up on amazon