Veiled Lady has become ill out of blue

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PeaceOfZen

Member
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - her name is Reptar, female veiled chameleon, roughly 14 months old, I've had her 4 months now.
  • Handling - about twice a week, but I sit and talk to her every day and hand mist her 3 - 6 times a day
  • Feeding - everyday I give her 10 or so medium sized to xl sized crickets, the crickets have constant access to greens romaine lettuce veggies and fruits such as squash sweet potatoes banana blueberry, I do not feed them anything from petstore like flukes gutload jelly- I just felt fresh items were healthier (open to suggestions or opinions about this)
  • Supplements - I dust the crickets with Rep-Cals CALCIUM WITH VIT D3, PHOSPHORUS FREE twice a week but I've noticed when i do this she eats far less that day as if the dust repels her :C and use Rep-Cals HERPTIVITE MULTIVITAMIN WITH BETA CAROTENE once every 2 weeks
  • Watering - until 2 days ago I had a zoo med "the little dripper" hanging from the top of her cage, though she never drank from it. She prefers drinking off her fake leaves which I mist numerous times a day (avg of 5 times a day) for about 2 minutes, easily go through 50 fluid oz. Of water a day from misting. I use a handy spray bottle with adjustable settings. Sometimes I spray her directly, sometimes indirectly. She always drinks it, she loves it.
  • Fecal Description - until a week ago her droppings were perfect, the stool was dark brown and firm with nearly all white urates, rarely ever saw yellow or orange in urate. Pooped at least once a day but sometimes twice. But now, as she has stopped eating, she has only gone once in 5 days and it is very runny/gooey. Urates are still all white but also very watery now :C
  • History - in the 4 months I've had her she has been in top botch shape (or appeared to be) very active, readily ate her crickets and even fresh lettuce and fruit mush I put on her vine, she was even chunky looking last week, had a nice plump belly gut. Her colors were always calm especially at night when I turn off all her lights, when she slept her colors were their most vibrant.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - all glass tank with mesh top that I tilt open allow better air flow, I chose a glass because I felt it would trap humidity better and keep animal dander out better as I have cats and dogs in our house. It is 36in long, 24 in tall, and 18in deep. [i have a proper ventilated home that's all screen coming in 2 days, it will be 48in tall, 36wide, 24 deep]
  • Lighting - until 5 days ago I've been using the double dome fixture made by ZooMed "tropical uvb light and heating kit" CONPLETE ITEM DESCRIPTION QUOTE "Zoo Med Tropical UVB & Heat Lighting Kit Tropical UVB & Heat Lighting Kit Includes: Mini Combo Deep Dome with Dual ceramic sockets for use with lamps up to 160 watts per socket. Dual on/off switches for greater convenience. Daylight Blue Reptile Bulb 60 watts. Bright, naturalistic daylight bulb for heating reptile or amphibian terrariums. True blue glass not painted or coated for better heat transfer made of European quality for long burn life ReptiSun 5.0 UVB Mini Compact Fluorescent. Perfect for small terrarium tropical species of reptiles and amphibians Provides UVB, UVA and visible light in a mini compact lamp." It sits freely atop his mesh cage lid, no glass or plants branches vines are blocking its rays.
  • Temperature - at top of tank right now it sitting around 80. at bottom 72. I use the dual gauge made by zoomed that you simply stick to inside of tank.
  • Humidity - humidity gauge says it is 70%. I mist her tank regularly throughout day, mist for 1 to 2 minutes allover tank - longer if she is drinking it readingly. I do this roughly 5 times a day, so about every 5 hours I give it a misting. There was also a dripper but i have taken it out temporarily to open her living space up some (she never drank from the dripper)
  • Plants - right now I only have fake plants, some leaf vines that suction to the side of tank. Bought from Petco. Unsure of brand. Her vines are also fake and from Petco. I have a fake driftwood and tiny tree stump aswell. And a real branch that resembles driftwood I found in the woods (washed it and let it sundry for w weeks before introducing it, it gives off no scents or odors and has no bugs living within or on it) I HAVE A POTHO AND AM LOOKING TO GET A FICUS OR SCHEFFLERA once her bigger open air cage arrives. Occasionally I do place wild dandelions and alfalfa in her tank but she's never shown interest in them. (They are picked from deep in woods away from any exposure to pesticides and rinsed thoroughly )
  • Placement - the cage is sitting on top of a 4 ft bookcase. Her resting spot is normally right at my head level. So she is approx. 5'7" from the ground. It is in my bedroom next to my bed. As we have cats and dogs this felt like the safest area, did not want her in living room or front because unsupervised cats are mischievous. My room has 2 windows on the same wall and she is placed between them against the wall. I never open my windows. And i have a ceiling fan I keep running almost always.
  • Location - I live in southern Georgia, USA. Right along the Alabama and GA border. South of Atlanta, north of Florida. We have hot and humid springs/summers and warm breezy falls and chilly but tolerable winters. Humidity is high here year round, with some non humid days here and there.
Current Problem - a little more then A week ago Reltar was very healthy. Active, alert, eating, drinking, pooping, sleep cycle was routine, colors were vibrant especially at night when her lights were all off, and she had a nice plump belly forming. That being said, I thought maybe it was her time to lay her first eggs! Exciting right? As I got her from a tank that had males and females (babies that were all born together) there was no way to know if she had mated or if the eggs would be infertile. As her belly grew, and she would at times turn slightly black with light blue dots (Robin egg display) I went ahead and added some eco earth substrate to her tank. Instead of taking her from her tank and placing her in a bin, I filled a large tumblewear container with 6 inch of substrate and placed it in corner of tank. After a week she never went in it but she still had moments of being polka dotted so I filled her entire tank with 6-8 in of substrate. I never saw her digging or tunnels.

Okay so now, 2 weeks ago I noticed those stupid little knats/mites that substrate seems to always encourage, so for a couple days I would spot clean the tank so to say - everytime I saw a mite I would smash it and remove it. At the same time I noticed reptar seemed, different. Her appetite had gone way down, instead of eating her 10 crickets she maybe ate 1. I wanted to remove the dirt but thinking she needed to lay eggs I decided I should leave it, because I've feared her becoming egg bound. Well, I waited maybe 2 more days and since reptar hadn't been digging or even searching about her dirt, I decided to remove it and clean the tank to remove the mites. It has been substrate and mite free for over a week now, but my baby is still very I'll and getting worse. Has not eaten in 6 days, is very weak and sleeping all day, her coloring looks like death and the most concerning to me her eyes are extremely sunkin in. On Tuesday April 16th my baby was as healthy and happy as could be, with an appetite and belly to show it, fecal and urates were superb. It is now April 25th and she is so skinny and fragile. Eyes closed and not responding to external stimuli - she use to turn into a flounder when I touched her belly and puff her spikey chin up when I moved her vines too much trying to put her cup of crickets in the tank , you know.. act like a responsive chameleon that likes its personal bubble respected lol, but now.. I can grab her and she doesnt inflate or deflate or flinch or open her eyes or anything. She is still crawling around her vines, and her feet still have a powerful grip. I have noticed she seems to rest with one hand hanging free instead of gripping her vine.

Yesterday I took her outside to get real sunlight. We were outside for 4 hours on a sunny nine cloudy day (she had shady spots if she got hot) and I soaked blueberry guts in the calcium with d3 and force fed her a tiny amount. She would not open her mouth for me what so ever and I did not want to cause harm by being overly forceful.

Note: I no longer think she had or has eggs, now that she is super skinny it is obvious there are no eggs in her. Unless they can burst and disintegrate? Do females turn black with blue polka dots for other reasons? She was not all black just 80% and there was no yellow dots or yellow anywhere (I do not believe she has yellow pigments)

ONE LAST THING: after being in sun yesterday for 4 hours, Reptar did this crazy gaping thing. She held her mouth wide open and wiggled her body for almost a minute straight. I immediately misted her and brought her inside. But 2 hours later she did it again even though the tank was at 70 degrees. There has been no other gaping, wheezing, snoring, mucus, or nostril discharge/ bubbles.

I apologize for the length of this, I know it seems like a novel, but if you have took the time to read it thank you so very much. Any ideas would mean the world to us!
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To start, thank you for filling out the form! So many people can't seem to do this.

There are some husbandry changes that need to be done, but vet immediately, and take a fecal sample. This sounds a lot like parasites(runny poop), but you are also wayyy overdoing the calc with d3 which can be toxic. She should be getting calc with d3 only twice a month, even less if she gets sun. Calc with no d3 at every feeding.

There are other changes to make, but atm the chameleon is in very serious danger by the sounds of it. Make sure she has plenty of water and keep everything as stress free as possible. Look for a good exotic vet WITH chameleon experience and let us know how it goes
 
Thank you for taking the time to read it all!! I will stop the d3 immediately. Although I dust her crickets with it twice a week I've only seen her actually consume it twice. Perhaps she was smart enough and could smell or sense it somehow so avoided it. Either way I will cut way back and do it twice a month. Maybe even once since I do take her outside occasionally.

And yes, I know her tank is not the best for airflow and she needs some real plants. I am working on that, her new cage should be here in a couple days - 4ftx3ftx2ft and all screen to promote air flow. I do not use substrate, normally I keep her tank floor clear, so that cleaning up feces is easier. I only put substrate in for 2 weeks thinking she may be ready to lay eggs. But has since been removed after finding stupid mites. Once her new home is here I will place a real potho and or ficus within it. Do her temps and humidity levels sound good or should I adjust them differently?

I also feel she has a parasite or bacterial thing going on, I regret putting that substrate in her tank, I felt strongly against doing it but was also scared if she did have eggs she would soon become egg bound. In the future I will just fill a separate bin and place her in that so mites dont get introduced into her sanctuary or any other things that lurk about.

I am calling vets around, the closest one I've found so far that actually has experience or specializes in reptiles is 2 hours from here and I cant be seen until tomorrow. I will keep the thread updated
 
PeaceOfZen said:
Thank you for taking the time to read it all!! I will stop the d3 immediately. Although I dust her crickets with it twice a week I've only seen her actually consume it twice. Perhaps she was smart enough and could smell or sense it somehow so avoided it. Either way I will cut way back and do it twice a month. Maybe even once since I do take her outside occasionally.

And yes, I know her tank is not the best for airflow and she needs some real plants. I am working on that, her new cage should be here in a couple days - 4ftx3ftx2ft and all screen to promote air flow. I do not use substrate, normally I keep her tank floor clear, so that cleaning up feces is easier. I only put substrate in for 2 weeks thinking she may be ready to lay eggs. But has since been removed after finding stupid mites. Once her new home is here I will place a real potho and or ficus within it. Do her temps and humidity levels sound good or should I adjust them differently?

I also feel she has a parasite or bacterial thing going on, I regret putting that substrate in her tank, I felt strongly against doing it but was also scared if she did have eggs she would soon become egg bound. In the future I will just fill a separate bin and place her in that so mites dont get introduced into her sanctuary or any other things that lurk about.

I am calling vets around, the closest one I've found so far that actually has experience or specializes in reptiles is 2 hours from here and I cant be seen until tomorrow. I will keep the thread updated
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I don't think they were mites, you wouldn't be able to smash mites like you said. They'd be extremely, small barely visible, and harmless soil detrivores. Not sure what it was without pictures, but whatever it was I'm confident in saying your problem didn't come from the substrate. If parasites is the case(sounds gross, but what's the poop smell like? Fishy?), then it almost certainly came from the crickets your feeding or was present prior to getting her.
 
Humidity could be lower during the day, aim for like 40-50 max. At night 70+%.

Temperature bump up a few degrees.
 
I finally located a vet that has experience with chameleons and have set an apt for tomorrow morning. They will run a fecal and any other test they feel are necessary.

As for husbandry, I know a glass tank is not the best and one with at least 2 screened sides are best - I am picking up a home built cage that is entirely screen and much larger then her current tank from someone in Atlanta in 2 days. Until then I am doing all I can to keep her tank very clean, and at proper humidity and temps. And propping the lid up with a light fan beside it to keep air flowing better.

I have no substrate or dirt in the bottom of enclosure anymore, I removed it promptly about a week ago, and it was only in the tank for 2 weeks tops. If I use anything at the bottom it is paper towels to soak up excess water from misting. Which I do numerous times a day. The substrate was a one time thing and ONLY because I thought she needed to lay eggs.

I do not have live plants right now but as long as I provide fresh greens/veggies/fruits I did not think it was absolutely necessary until I get the bigger enclosure. Once I have the proper enclosure I will be adding a ficus and or potho.

I keep the crickets in their own habitat in a different room of house entirely, and feed them fresh produce that is thoroughly washed including but not restricted to - romaine, greens, kale, squash, sweet potatoes, blueberries, banans, mango, pear pulp, etc..
Each day I take 10 crickets and place then in a large mug which I then place in her enclosure. I do not let them free roam.

I have tried worms but she never goes for them so I stopped. I have never given her an insect i caught outside be cause pesticide is a bit** and you just never know what a bug is carrying. I purchase my crickets from Petco though, and I will honestly admit I do not trust Petcos maintenance efforts. Their crickets seem to die very very fast but I'm not sure where else to get them. Where do yall get your critters??

Besides the tank being glass, and not having real plants, what else about my husbandry is concerning?? I feel I keep her tank very clean, very. And work hard to ensure it is humid enough and that her uvb and heat bulb are on during the day.

Is there something I'm missing??
I AM GETTING A NON GLASS LARGE ENCLOSURE IN THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS, AND ADDING REAL PLANT LIFE ONCE I DO. so please so not bash me for having the wrong tank, I am very aware.
 
jamest0o0 said:
I don't think they were mites, you wouldn't be able to smash mites like you said. They'd be extremely, small barely visible, and harmless soil detrivores. Not sure what it was without pictures, but whatever it was I'm confident in saying your problem didn't come from the substrate. If parasites is the case(sounds gross, but what's the poop smell like? Fishy?), then it almost certainly came from the crickets your feeding or was present prior to getting her.
Click to expand...

Thank you for all your replies, I call them mites but you're probably right, they look like knats but they cannot fly, they just crawl around. They are common in turtle and lizard and well reptile habitats. I feel confident every reptile owner has seen at least one in their time, they thrive In damp substrates I believe. Now onto the poop!! - when I first got her 4 months ago I was surprised because in my reading alot of people say chameleon poop is odorless, but her very first poop here definitely had a smell, smelt like well, crap. I wouldn't say fishy, maybe more like a healthy human sample? Sorry that sounds gross, but it wasn't as strong as cat or dog poop. But definitely had a smell. Looked very healthy though. Until a week ago her poop has looked ideal, firm brown with white urate, occasionally a touch of yellow but normally just white. Now that she has diahrea, I dont notice a smell, but its surely not ideal, being mushy and watery and all. I want to find a place with healthier crickets, I've been going to Petco but they just dont seem great at all - where would you suggest getting insects?
 
CamoChameleonsHuman said:
She's needs a Vet ASAP. Everything you've described are warning signs of serious issues in a chameleon. There are issues with your husbandry that need to be fixed as well but I'm at work right now so I'm hoping someone else can chime in with the fixes you need to make. But for right now right this second she needs to see an exotic vet
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I have a vet scheduled for tomorrow morning, when you get off work and get settled in, of you wouldn't mind can you elaborate on my poor husbandry? I have done alot of research and try very hard to keep her enosure ideal so I am slightly puzzled by all this husbandry talk. I know a glass tank is not recommended, i am picking up an extra large all screen/mesh ventilated enclosure in 2 days. I keep humidity above 50, temp around 75 80 and basking spot around 85 the best I can. Have a dripper and hand mist. Put her crickets in a mug and keep the cricket habitat in a separate room altogether, I try to clean the cricket tank aeast twice a week (wipe out their messes) but change their food supply daily and pick out any dead crickets daily. I keep a heater next to them to prevent them from eating each other.
I dont use substrate, I keep bottom clear or use paper towels to absorb excess water.

I have the repcal brands CALCIUM w D3, Calcium without d3, and just ordered the repashy calcium plus which I plan on using In place of the other two. I may throw out the d3 supplement altogether as repashy is suppose to be an "all in one" .

Idk if you have any experience with this next part but I came across an herbal supplement called REPTAID that claims to relieve parasites and bacteria infections in reptiles, many people ha e reviewed it saying it helped their chameleon amazingly especially when they had lost their appetite and had lethargy weakness and diahrea. Would it be worth purchasing?

Thank you for your reply, hope work is going well
 
Daesie11 said:
You said until 5 days ago you were using the dome lighting, but what are you using now?
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Sorry, with so much info to put into the post I must of got tongue tied. Yes I was using the dome until recently, I have had it for 4 months and k now that you should replace the uvb light every 6, I thought perhaps her uvb light has stopped emitting properly so I switched to using a 2 foot uvb fixture, I believe it is a 10, whereas the dome light had a 5.0 bulb. I still use the dome light too but just turn on the daylight heat bulb. I hope this made sense
 
Since her appointment isn't until tomorrow morning and you said her eyes were sunken in and refusing to eat it wouldn't be a bad idea to try putting her in the shower to get her hydrated. Turn the shower on and point the head so the water hits the wall. Make sure the water isn't hot or cold but luke warmish. Put her on a perch and let her bask in the steam and mist coming off the wall. This should instinctfuly and hopefully trigger a drinking response in her.
 
I will do this! Thank you ! Is it true that they can absorb water through the skin? Like enough to hydrate them if they are not drinking, if the water skin contact lasts long enough? And how long do you think, 30 minutes or so?
 
PeaceOfZen said:
Sorry, with so much info to put into the post I must of got tongue tied. Yes I was using the dome until recently, I have had it for 4 months and k now that you should replace the uvb light every 6, I thought perhaps her uvb light has stopped emitting properly so I switched to using a 2 foot uvb fixture, I believe it is a 10, whereas the dome light had a 5.0 bulb. I still use the dome light too but just turn on the daylight heat bulb. I hope this made sense
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Yep that made sense! I know you keep asking about your husbandry that the others have pointed out, the old lighting you were using is probably one of the things that caught everyone else eye which is why I asked. The old setup you had was no good, but the new linear bulb you have now is more in line with the husbandry expectations for a chameleon. I think that, along with the supplements were the biggest things in your description. Though I am not nearly as experienced as most everyone else on this forum, so take my words with a grain of salt and wait for one of the more experienced keepers to chime in :)
 
PeaceOfZen said:
I will do this! Thank you ! Is it true that they can absorb water through the skin? Like enough to hydrate them if they are not drinking, if the water skin contact lasts long enough? And how long do you think, 30 minutes or so?
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No... They physically need to drink the water.i think what you're referring to is losing water. When chameleons are young their skin is much thinner and they lose water intake fast. Where as a adult not so much. The water isn't suppose to blast her but the mist off the shower wall should slightly be in contact with her skin.
 
You're husbandry isn't terrible, just some mostly minor things to adjust. The d3 was the main one for the moment. I didn't want to get too much into anything else because right now it's just emergency measures.

Chams also absorb water from humidity with their lungs. You don't want high humidity during the day paired with warm temperatures. It increases the chance of RI. So a nice cool shower. If it feels warm to you, make it cooler. Let the water hit off the wall.

And btw those bugs were probably springtails. Beneficial to the substrate so no worries there(y)
 
I wouldn’t be surprised if she is egg bound.

Lack of plain calcium. To much d3. And to much food.

You should feed her every other day. I give my females about 7-8 crickets every other day. To much food can cause her to produce a huge clutch of eggs.

Lack of plain calcium means she probably didn’t have enough to make egg shells.


Just my guess. Let us k ow what the vet says.
 
PeaceOfZen said:
Note: I no longer think she had or has eggs, now that she is super skinny it is obvious there are no eggs in her. Unless they can burst and disintegrate? Do females turn black with blue polka dots for other reasons? She was not all black just 80% and there was no yellow dots or yellow anywhere (I do not believe she has yellow pigments)
Click to expand...

Didn’t see this part before.
 
Thank you everyone for all your opinions and help, I have set an appointment with vet for tomorrow morning and will let everyone k now how it goes and how Reptar is doing after.

On a side note I've figured out what those pesky little bugs were, they are fungus gnats that thrive in damp soil. The soil has been removed though so they knats are long gone! Crazy that such a tiny insect can lay so many eggs so fast!!
 
Please be aware that sunken eyes do NOT always indicate dehydration! Forcing water on a sick chameleon can do more harm than good. It can be dehydration, but there are many instances where chameleons are ill and unfortunately on their way out when their eyes sink in. In any case, it is a bad sign.
 
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