Veiled not eating

[vistajpdf]

Hi there,

I got what we thought was a female veiled at 4 weeks old in May. We just confirmed that there is a heel spike and she is a he. Anyway, he is now about 9 months old. We do wildlife sessions for children and took him to the "clubhouse" last week along with other reptiles. He was not handled, but was handfed as we usually do this here at home. The first day all was well.

On the second day, towards the end of the day, his color was darker and he would turn away from food. I took him home that night. It's now 9 days later and he is still not eating. He was well hydrated, but today, it appears that he is not drinking as usual. He is misted several times per day, usually putting his mouth up to the top screen of his four foot by two ft. by two ft. screened enclosure to get water right from the misting bottle or drink off of dripping leaves.

Initially, I thought perhaps the children put more crickets in the cage and that he was privately eating, but now I do not think that was the case. I thought he'd perk back up here in familiar surroundings. He is refusing food and did not drink today. I worry that his eyes look deeper set today.

I consulted with my vet who can see him Tues, but I'm still very worried. The vet had me look for eye discharge or sores behind the legs but I see nothing. Today, he was more inactive than his usual roaming around the cage. My son briefly took him out to see if he'd come and he did. We rarely handle him and no one handled him at the wildlife session. The door was opened, he was fed, then it was closed again. My oldest son and I both feel his crest is slightly crooked. Also, what we thought was part of last week's shed is still there and I worry that the crest is burned. I don't know what a burn looks like, but he can get within 6 inches of the 100 watt bulb that is set above his cage. I just moved it away so he can't get as close but he seems to want the heat. He also has UVB 5.0 on along with the heat 12 hours per day. Neither of these has changed since he was moved to this larger cage (3 months ago) from the smaller, partly glass one he had as a baby.

He has both artificial and live plants (pothos) in the cage, vines, and is misted several times through the day, with a dripping bottle left on the cage daily.

He is fed gut loaded and dusted crickets (Rep Cal). I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks,
Dana

 

[Lovereps]

Hi Dana. Welcome to the forums!

You'll get the best advice if you spend a couple of minutes cutting and pasting the questions from and adding your answers to these:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

If you can add pictures that helps, too.

 

[carol5208]

hello there. Sorry your boy is not feeling well. A couple of things...Does the repcal contain d3? How often are you dusting with this and what are you gutloading with??

 

[vistajpdf]

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 4 ft. x 2 ft. x 2 ft. screen since end of Aug.
Lighting - I think all Zoo Med: 100 W basking, 5.0 UVB
Temperature - hygrometer and thermometer broke 6 weeks ago - will buy new tomorrow.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Pothos live, many fake.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located? It's on a coffee table that is placed against a window/wall. There are plants outside the window about 6 feet away from the window. The cage is next to Tokay Geckos, but separated by a visual barrier. We live in Ft. Laud.

I use the Rep Cal pink label daily and about 3 times / month, the Rep Cal multivitamin. Crickets are gut loaded with carrots, celery, apples, and oranges. Rarely I have used non-gutloaded (or straight from the pet store) for the animals when out of my stock of crickets.

The area that may be burned looked like the start or end of a shed (about 11 days ago he shed) but it's whitish and there is another spot in the middle of the spine that looks the same.

Should I try neosporin? Should I move his cage? Pedialyte?

Please advise.
Thanks so much. Vet appt, is Tues. Don't want to do harm, but would love to help Sparkle before then.

 

[carol5208]

The one thing I see that is not good is you have been using the Repcal (pink label) which contains d3 everyday. Repcal contains a very high dose of d3(one of the highest) and should have been used about twice a month. Your chameleon could be overdosed on d3. It can cause probelms with their organs.. You need to get a plain calcium with NO d3 and that should be used at every feeding. Now I am not saying that is why your chameleon stopped eating but if it is not a problem now, it will most likely be down the road if you continue. You did change his scenery which will sometimes throw them into a stress pattern and they will not eat, but 9 days later... I am not sure.

 

[vistajpdf]

Wow, I followed advice from the reptile specialist store. I have to now check for my other species (Jackson's, Senegal), skinks, beardie...thanks. I will quit that and talk to the vet tomorrow if I can.
Dana

 

[Lovereps]

Wow, I followed advice from the reptile specialist store.

Not surprising.
When I went into a shop to get calcium without D3 they said,"Why would you want that?"


Here is the daily use calcium:
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/food-nutr...s/rep-cal/rep-cal-calcium-without-vit-d3.html

An excess of D3 supplements can damage internal organs, so it is important that the vet be aware of the D3 frequency as a possible cause of his current problem.
Giving him more water may help him to flush out the excess, though your vet may prescribe a medication to help with that.
Your Jackson's and Senegals are even more sensitive to excessive supplements than your Veiled is.

The calcium with D3 is for 2x a month use with your Veiled and 1x a month for your Jackson's and Senegals.

Your chams would also benefit from 1x a month multivitamin supplement for the Jackson's/Senegals and 2x a month for your Veiled
like this one:
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/food-nutr...nhancers/rep-cal/herptivite-multivitamin.html

If it turns out that his skin problems are just stuck shed, you can mist him with warm water more often and it should help.

I wish you well and hope you'll let us know what the vet has to say.

 

[carol5208]

Wow, I followed advice from the reptile specialist store. I have to now check for my other species (Jackson's, Senegal), skinks, beardie...thanks. I will quit that and talk to the vet tomorrow if I can.
Dana

I don't know if this pertains to other reptiles....just know from what I have learned and seen on here about d3 and the dangers of giving a chameleon too much of it. I have also learned that pet stores and even specialty reptile stores do not always know what they are talking about when it comes to chameleons. If you want to stick to owning a chameleon, this is the place to come to if you have any questions in the future! We also have two veterinarians who own chameleons and one of those breeds chameleons as well on our forum. They are both quite knowledgeable and are always willing to help. Good luck with your cham.

 

[vistajpdf]

Ironically, I have the calcium w/o D3 on hand, but bought that one at their requests. I will call the vet today about this. I'm terrified he is shutting down as he didn't drink well yesterday and his eyes look sunk. The rep cal began when he moved onto the bigger crickets, so a few months now.

Thanks for your guidance. I'm heartsick over this, knowing I made him sick is even worse. We save everything and now have contributed to Sparkle's decline. I pray it isn't too late.

Dana

 

[vistajpdf]

clarification

I went to the wildlife clubhouse this morning and looked at the jar of Rep Cal and it is a pink label that specifically says "phosphorous free." So, I'm relieved that I haven't been using a supplement with P in it. The Herpivite (with beta carotene) is used 2-3 times per month and I will cut down to twice.

I elevated the basking lamp. All lamps are actually Exo terra, not Zoo med (confused in that I just purchased Zoo Med for our new steppe lizard.) The UVB is a 5.0 by Reptiglo.

Sparkle just drank for me, but his eyes appear far more sunken in than I've ever seen. Tues. can't get here soon enough for that vet appt.

If there are any more thoughts, please send them along. I did mist him with warm water as there are the two spots that appear to be left from shedding 10 days ago, but could be burns? The basking spot is now about 8 inches from his crest as he has gotten as close as possible to it and may even be rubbing his head on the top of the screen to get closer? Could that cause the white area I'm seeing? Should I apply neosporin w/o any sort of pain reliever in it? He looks thin, but I'm used to seeing him so robust...i have mealworms, but have never fed them to him. Would it be worth a try or more stress on his system? He ignored the Romaine lettuce, but usually does, the other day. His diet is only crickets. I'm willing to try to vary that if anyone has any great ideas, but I worry something's going on systemically. He was captive bred, so I'd think parasites would be minimal, but I do have the two Tokays adjacent to his tank and they were found in the Everglades when I was asked to take them.

Dana

 

[vistajpdf]

I'm afraid the pothos I have had in the cage since Aug. is actually a philodendron. I saw Sparkle eat some when first put in there, but not lately. Could this be a problem?

 

[carol5208]

I went to the wildlife clubhouse this morning and looked at the jar of Rep Cal and it is a pink label that specifically says "phosphorous free." So, I'm relieved that I haven't been using a supplement with P in it. The Herpivite (with beta carotene) is used 2-3 times per month and I will cut down to twice.

I elevated the basking lamp. All lamps are actually Exo terra, not Zoo med (confused in that I just purchased Zoo Med for our new steppe lizard.) The UVB is a 5.0 by Reptiglo.

Sparkle just drank for me, but his eyes appear far more sunken in than I've ever seen. Tues. can't get here soon enough for that vet appt.

If there are any more thoughts, please send them along. I did mist him with warm water as there are the two spots that appear to be left from shedding 10 days ago, but could be burns? The basking spot is now about 8 inches from his crest as he has gotten as close as possible to it and may even be rubbing his head on the top of the screen to get closer? Could that cause the white area I'm seeing? Should I apply neosporin w/o any sort of pain reliever in it? He looks thin, but I'm used to seeing him so robust...i have mealworms, but have never fed them to him. Would it be worth a try or more stress on his system? He ignored the Romaine lettuce, but usually does, the other day. His diet is only crickets. I'm willing to try to vary that if anyone has any great ideas, but I worry something's going on systemically. He was captive bred, so I'd think parasites would be minimal, but I do have the two Tokays adjacent to his tank and they were found in the Everglades when I was asked to take them.

Dana

Dana, please recheck the label. The only pink label repcal that I know of does say "phosphorus free" but right below it it says Calcium with VitD3. the one with no d3 has a triangular turquoise label

 

[DavidBuchan]

Hello, welcome to the forum Sorry to hear little Sparkle isn't feeling so well. I would say yes to try offering him some mealworms, or better yet silkworms, if he eats them it's a good sign. Any new insects are worth a try - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html
Your uvb bulb is the same one I first used, but it doesn't last long, it will need replacing after about 4 months. A Reptisun 5.0 lasts about 6, an Arcadia 6% should last nearly a year (even if it still works the quality of light has depleted too much). Your gutloading is ok, but could be better too https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html There are some good commercial gutloads too, like Repashy Bug Burger, or Cricket Crack.

 

[Lovereps]

I'm afraid the pothos I have had in the cage since Aug. is actually a philodendron. I saw Sparkle eat some when first put in there, but not lately. Could this be a problem?

Unfortunately, I did find Philodendron on a list of plants considered poisonous to reptiles and it is considered poionous to some other animals, as well
http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-health/reptile-toxic-plants.aspx

Hopefully, he took a small taste and decided it wasn't so good.
Parasites are always a possibility, even in captive bred chams.
Instead of having gotten them in the wild, they can get them from contact with other animals that had parasites or reused enclosures that were not cleaned of parasite eggs/cysts, etc.

Maybe the vet will agree to see Sparkle tomorrow since he is looking worse.
Keeping him well hydrated is most important and it is good that he is drinking.
Warm mistings in the shower, with Sparkle on a plant and the shower aimed to bounce off a wall, not the plant, can encourage him to drink enough
to rehydrate better.
It has also been said that mixing Pedialyte with an equal amount of water and giving it to him with a dropper can benefit dehydrated chams.

I hope all goes well with the vet visit and that he bounces back quickly.
Please let us know how he does.

 

[fluxlizard]

There are so many unknowns- maybe your vet will help.

Examples- what is his diet like other than supplementation?
Is it possible he ate a couple of entire leaves of the toxic plant?
What was in the cage at the nature center- anything toxic there or fake that he might have eaten (fabric plants or plastic?). Possible a kid could have slipped him something? Did someone clean the cage at the center or the water container and leave soap residue or other cleaner where he might drink it? Is he old? etc etc

Lots to consider...

 

[vistajpdf]

I'm afraid the vet is not in tomorrow. I was hoping he could see me last Friday, but Tues. was the first available appt.

The cage at the wildlife center was his. I moved it and him. It's the only time he was handled. He rode over (2 miles) on my son's hand.

I've had a near disastrous incident with philodendron and a cat years ago. I was shocked to see it listed as a preferable plant for chameleons. I don't know where I got that info, but after reading that live plants helped prevent dehydration and that Devil's Ivy (which I believed this was) was a good choice, I actively went out and bought it. I kept it in his cage as I have a number of animals that I didn't want to get into it after the earlier episode.

Sparkle looks really bad at the moment - very dark and not holding on well to his vine. I'm terrified he will not make it until his appt.

Dana

 

[Lovereps]

Dana, I hope he hangs in there for you.
About the only things you can try are these:
"Warm mistings in the shower, with Sparkle on a plant and the shower aimed to bounce off a wall, not the plant, can encourage him to drink enough
to rehydrate better.
Mixing Pedialyte with an equal amount of water and giving it to him with a dropper can benefit dehydrated chams."

Best of luck with him!

 

[vistajpdf]

His tongue is now extended. I've seen this as a death sentence and also as a treatable calcium deficiency. Vet is not in until my appt. tomorrow am. Trying to keep him warm and the tongue moistened without letting the children see him.

 

[DavidBuchan]

Oh, sorry to hear It is possible he will be able to keep the tongue, but even if not he can still learn to eat without it. Good luck, I hope it can be treated ok.

 

[vistajpdf]

Thank you

I want to thank all of you for the warm welcome and well wishes. The vet was not in today, so tomorrow at 10 am we will be there. I will let you know what happens. I'm keeping the tongue moist, but he looks so weak, I'm afraid he may have to be euthanized. We will see.

I am a dentist, but a zoologist by degree. Why I would ever listen to a pet shop employee over my own instincts is beyond me. A busy mom with a small menagerie of unwanted pets that we have taken in, I guess. I have learned with my other animals that forums like this one are priceless. I regret not finding you all sooner. I pray Sparkle can be saved and that "Rango" (Senegal) and "Jack" (Jackson's) suffer no ill effects from the Rep Cal sold to us in August.

I appreciate everyone's prompt responses and support.