Vermiculite vs perlite ??
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Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Neonate ...
... what will you call yourself years from now .. LOL
I'm going to have to chime in on the side of vermiculite for two main reasons:
1) You can better control moisture content/ratio, as vermiculite better imitates the natural wick/sponge characterisitics of soil; and more importantly
2) You can bury your eggs. To be blunt, all the emphasis by some to have their eggs on the surface serves no positive purpose to better increase hatch ... not a single one ... while introducing greater risk to otherwise expected hatch rates.
Just a few relevent thoughts. Eggs on the surface are more prone to drying out. More readily affected by humidity errors. More available to predatoin by a stray cricket of cockroach, God forbid one gets in. There is no protective value to removing bad eggs out of a fear that any mold on them will affect good eggs. Its balderdash. All that eggs-on-top satisfies is a curiosity to look at them. This can be done if they are buried, merely by scooping away a couple of inches of vermiculite to see if they look OKevery month. When eggs go bad, providing the moisture has been OK all along, you can't do anything about it anyway.
The larger the container that your eggs are in, and the more vermiculite your use, the more stable your eggs will be. Accidents happen, which is one reason why we do not recommend incubators be used, as you only need find a 72-78 F area to keep your eggs in (you can do the conversion to limey temps
). Incubators malfunction, and you then are faced with only being able to eat your poached chameleon eggs. A little pepper improves the taste.
Use a courser grade vermiculite. Add water, by mass, so that it is approximately a 0.8 to 1 part water : to one part vermiculite. This may vary by volume based on the size of the actual vermiculite particles, but with the product we use, its 9 parts vermiculite by volume to one part water. Vermiculite is usually available in 3-4 grades. Get "course", not "medium" or "extra course". Calibrate by weight the first time around, after which you can mix by volume, which is easier.
OK. Bring on the "eggs on top" protagonists. I'm ready
... what will you call yourself years from now .. LOL
I'm going to have to chime in on the side of vermiculite for two main reasons:
1) You can better control moisture content/ratio, as vermiculite better imitates the natural wick/sponge characterisitics of soil; and more importantly
2) You can bury your eggs. To be blunt, all the emphasis by some to have their eggs on the surface serves no positive purpose to better increase hatch ... not a single one ... while introducing greater risk to otherwise expected hatch rates.
Just a few relevent thoughts. Eggs on the surface are more prone to drying out. More readily affected by humidity errors. More available to predatoin by a stray cricket of cockroach, God forbid one gets in. There is no protective value to removing bad eggs out of a fear that any mold on them will affect good eggs. Its balderdash. All that eggs-on-top satisfies is a curiosity to look at them. This can be done if they are buried, merely by scooping away a couple of inches of vermiculite to see if they look OKevery month. When eggs go bad, providing the moisture has been OK all along, you can't do anything about it anyway.
The larger the container that your eggs are in, and the more vermiculite your use, the more stable your eggs will be. Accidents happen, which is one reason why we do not recommend incubators be used, as you only need find a 72-78 F area to keep your eggs in (you can do the conversion to limey temps
). Incubators malfunction, and you then are faced with only being able to eat your poached chameleon eggs. A little pepper improves the taste. Use a courser grade vermiculite. Add water, by mass, so that it is approximately a 0.8 to 1 part water : to one part vermiculite. This may vary by volume based on the size of the actual vermiculite particles, but with the product we use, its 9 parts vermiculite by volume to one part water. Vermiculite is usually available in 3-4 grades. Get "course", not "medium" or "extra course". Calibrate by weight the first time around, after which you can mix by volume, which is easier.
OK. Bring on the "eggs on top" protagonists. I'm ready
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Great post Jim, I like that you brought up the burrying of eggs. I agree with this also. I think the major benefit of having them on top is not just curiosity, but seeing when the eggs swell, which means hatching soon, so you can be better prepared for hatchlings. However, if you have eggs, you should be prepared by the time they are about to hatch anyways...
I'm also on the side of vermiculite for the reasons mentioned above, but there is also a greater risk of impaction from perlite. Though not super-common, perlite will be ingested by babies more often than vermiculite....of course this does depend on what grade you get, and the courser the vermiculite, the better.
50/50 peat moss and sand also has worked well for me.
I'm also on the side of vermiculite for the reasons mentioned above, but there is also a greater risk of impaction from perlite. Though not super-common, perlite will be ingested by babies more often than vermiculite....of course this does depend on what grade you get, and the courser the vermiculite, the better.
50/50 peat moss and sand also has worked well for me.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Brock,
While there's certainly an advantage to being able to better anticipate when eggs will hatch, particularly with regard to having food ready, I would like to add two factors to that planning for those less experienced here:
1) With a diapause, for those that can do it, hatch dates can be much better anticipated, and then checked for when hatch time is predicted; and
2) It is very easy to check eggs buried in vermiculite.
I applaud the peat moss and sand approach. I think that incubators, perlite, eggs on the surface, etc., are all often symptoms of over-management that plagues so much of the hobby, to the unfortunate detriment of many of the animals we keep, and goals we aim for.
While there's certainly an advantage to being able to better anticipate when eggs will hatch, particularly with regard to having food ready, I would like to add two factors to that planning for those less experienced here:
1) With a diapause, for those that can do it, hatch dates can be much better anticipated, and then checked for when hatch time is predicted; and
2) It is very easy to check eggs buried in vermiculite.
I applaud the peat moss and sand approach. I think that incubators, perlite, eggs on the surface, etc., are all often symptoms of over-management that plagues so much of the hobby, to the unfortunate detriment of many of the animals we keep, and goals we aim for.
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Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
... Accidents happen, which is one reason why we do not recommend incubators be used, as you only need find a 72-78 F area to keep your eggs in (you can do the conversion to limey temps
Very easy in Florida ... not so easy here.
After a winter of ruining a clutch due largely (I believe) to very low temps in the warmest part of the house, and even colder night time drops ... I will be using my incubators from now on.
-Brad
warpdrive
Avid Member
I have to agree with you...
while most members (and breaders) here are from Cali and Fl, some of us are not.
I'm not saying that incubators are needed by everyone, but let's not forget that some of us don't live in such "hot' weather areas.
in the winter months it would be hard to keep any of my rooms above 72F all the time. daytime sure, but night time, almost no way.
in the summer months with my AC going, my household temps are more like 65F (but humid as hell).
if I was ever going to try to raise eggs to babys, an incubator would be a much needed product.
again, let's try to remember that we each have our own needs due to where we live and our envirnment.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Where I live, night time temps can get down to low 60s (usually 63-65) during the winter. Although I think night time drops by 1 or 2 degrees is beneficial for the development of neonates in the eggs...if you live in a colder region, it's best to have an incubator.
Just to add to the 50/50 peat moss/sand mixture. Peat moss has a pretty low pH, which can have negative affects and even break down the shells.
I should have added this in my first reply! It's not a HUGE concern, but depending on the source of your peat moss, the pH can be as low as 3.5 which is pretty low.
Next time I have to incubate anything, I will be using coconut husk and sand, 50/50, because it has a more neutral pH, among other beneficial qualities, and is closer to what the jungle floor would actually be like.
Just to add to the 50/50 peat moss/sand mixture. Peat moss has a pretty low pH, which can have negative affects and even break down the shells.
I should have added this in my first reply! It's not a HUGE concern, but depending on the source of your peat moss, the pH can be as low as 3.5 which is pretty low.
Next time I have to incubate anything, I will be using coconut husk and sand, 50/50, because it has a more neutral pH, among other beneficial qualities, and is closer to what the jungle floor would actually be like.
kenya
Avid Member
It will be way too wet...soupy, almost, and very sticky.
I have incubated chameleon eggs since the mid 90's with them sitting on the surface of the vermiculite. C. chamaeleons had close to 100% hatch rate and veileds 100% hatch rate of fertile eggs. I have also hatched coneheads, waterdragons, two species of turtle eggs, several species of gecko eggs, several other species of chameleons, etc. the same way with good (almost perfect) results...healthy hatchlings (many of which I have kept at least some of for their entire lives)....so I guess I will just keep on "over-managing" things. No point in fixing what "ain't" broken! I have to agree with warpdrive that needs can differ depending on where we live and our environment.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Not necessarily, but you would have to come up with new ratios of water to vermiculite by weight, as fine vermiculite is denser.
To those who have had success with eggs-on-top, you are to be commended. That does not decrease from the added risks however, but rather is testimony to your attentiveness and dedication to your eggs. The risks mentioned are not speculation. Direct accounts of egg loss due to all of the risks noted have occurred. Eggs-on-top reduces the margin for error, just as using incubators also introduce factors that can go wrong quickly, such as electronic malfunctions. As noted, over-management in many cases increases risk at every phase of chameleon husbandry. This is not to champion under-management either. We could fill pages with examples, but would rather just suggest that folks always consider the KISS (keep it simple and stupid) principle in evaluating solutions, as well as having a reason, if you are to deviate from the natural status of the animal, as to why you are doing so.
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jojackson
New Member
I use Neither, instead I use slightly moistened fresh sphagum moss, and nest eggs in thumb depressions. I use this method for a variety of lizard species (not chams yet)
and I find it naturally inhibits mould and allows for once only moistening without the need for constant checking of humidity or topping moisture.
Great Success with this method.
Pearlite is good used in conjunction with vermiculite, by using the bottom layer (vermiculite) as a moisture resevoir, while the top layer (perlite) retains less moisture, which means not too much moisture content touching the eggs which helps to prevent mould.
I personally find the first method prefrable for peace of mind. Never had mould issues nor had to adjust humidity throughout incubation (longest incubation 4 months). No fertile eggs lost in years.
and I find it naturally inhibits mould and allows for once only moistening without the need for constant checking of humidity or topping moisture.
Great Success with this method.
Pearlite is good used in conjunction with vermiculite, by using the bottom layer (vermiculite) as a moisture resevoir, while the top layer (perlite) retains less moisture, which means not too much moisture content touching the eggs which helps to prevent mould.
I personally find the first method prefrable for peace of mind. Never had mould issues nor had to adjust humidity throughout incubation (longest incubation 4 months). No fertile eggs lost in years.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I've usually kept just the tops exposed. And, recently, I've had to use fine vermiculite. Couldn't find any coarse, I find the fine stuff to be more problematic for some reason.
It also seems to hold the eggs less reliably than coarse. I have a problem of the eggs "surfacing" in the fine stuff, whereas with coarse vermiculite, they pretty much stay put.
The clutch I have now is pretty much resting on the surface - which annoyes me to the end. They can roll over, and worst of all, condensation from the top - which is minimal, but happens - can drip directly on an egg.
I need to just order the stuff now, so I have it when I need it.
I have few clutches at a time, so I like to keep track of them - I usually keep most buried by a thin layer, and have a few here and there exposed, for observation.
The simpler the better - these are things laid in dirt in the wild, clumped together, deep deep down. They tend to hatch, barring our intervention!
It also seems to hold the eggs less reliably than coarse. I have a problem of the eggs "surfacing" in the fine stuff, whereas with coarse vermiculite, they pretty much stay put.
The clutch I have now is pretty much resting on the surface - which annoyes me to the end. They can roll over, and worst of all, condensation from the top - which is minimal, but happens - can drip directly on an egg.
I need to just order the stuff now, so I have it when I need it.
I have few clutches at a time, so I like to keep track of them - I usually keep most buried by a thin layer, and have a few here and there exposed, for observation.
The simpler the better - these are things laid in dirt in the wild, clumped together, deep deep down. They tend to hatch, barring our intervention!
jojackson
New Member
Yes, thats more a case of water-logged vermiculite 'compacting' than eggs surfacing. The problem of condensation just dosent arise with sphagum moss, especially if you havent overdone the moisture to begin with (too easy to do with vermiculite)
rather a thin film of condensation remains on tub sides lid but dosent get to dripping stage.
None the less, a bonus with SM is that its slightly acidic meaning it naturally inhibits mould and is therefore ideal to use a thin layer ontop of eggs if required, to catch those drips. The nature of it is that water disperses along the plant rather than stays where it falls, evenly distributing moisture and preventing wetness.
BocaJan
New Member
I have been unable to get the course vermiculite here in FL. I have been using the fine stuff but am checking my eggs 1x/week. I didn't start out with very wet vermiculite but had to add moisture with a medicine dropper to keep up the moisture. I finger pinch a bit of it about 1x/mo just to make sure.
