Very Sick Veiled Chameleon with MBD (Juvenile) - Help :-(

[Frodo4eva]

Hi Everyone! New to the forum but am grateful you are all here. Here are the answers to the help questions first:

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Juvenile Veiled Chameleon, male, been in my care about 7 months.
Handling - Not often but more so now to help him while he is sick.
Feeding - He is fed crickets and mealworms - once a day (about 2-3 crickets when he was healthy). Crickets are gut loaded with Flukers high calcium cricket diet and cricket quencher.
Supplements - Currently crickets are dusted with Reptivite and "Fred" is being force fed Carnivore Care.
Watering - Reptarium is misted at least 3 times a day and also has a dripper. Normally i have not seen Fred drink.
Fecal Description - From what I have seen droppings appeared to be normal, brown/green with white. Has not been tested for parasites.
History - Not at this time.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Currently he is in a 38 gallon Apogee Repatrium screened (16.5 x 16.5 x 30)
Lighting - Using a dual cone with one UVB 13x Reptile tropical light and one UVA Standard Basking light - is on from 8:30am to 9pm every day
Temperature - Currently temperature is 80-82 degrees. I use a standard temp gauge. At night it does not get below 78.
Humidity - The humidity seems to always be at 40 no matter what I do. Apart from the misting and the drip there is nothing else I do . Standard Hum gauge used.
Plants - No live plants used
Placement - Cage is locate in our family room and on top of a small refrigerator as its base. Not really too near any vents or fans that I believe would affect anything but its possible I suppose.
Location - I am located in South Florida

So basically what I believe to be relevant is that I first started out with a standard 20 gallon terrarium that did not have any height, thought it would be ok for a juvenile but then invested in the correct setting (pictures attached). He regrettably did not have the right lighting either, chalk it up to a first time chameleon owner. So I basically blame myself for my poor little guys problems.
I had a huge scare this morning when I fed him the Carnivore Care after about a few minutes he started to convulse and then vomited pretty much everything he ate and also what appeared to be some cricket carcass. He then just shut down - I thought he died - didn't move, turned stiff and just looked dead. But somehow it seemed he was just in a short coma and then woke up again (yay) and is now breathing and awake again like before. However I have him currently in a little box in the reptarium under the lights because he does not have the strength to climb or hold on. Last night he was on the floor as well as this morning but moving.
I took Fred to the vet about 1.5 weeks ago (that is when she gave him the Carnivore Care as well as a medication for pain) She said more then likely it was MBD but could even be gout but to keep administering the Carnivore Care and the med when needed. She actually told me that its pretty good he has lasted this long in my care because she has seen many (95%) juveniles die much earlier.
He has not really improved and do not know what to do furthermore. Attached are picture of my buddy Fred and his reptarium. Hope you all can provide some insight...

 

[Carlton]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Juvenile Veiled Chameleon, male, been in my care about 7 months.
Feeding - He is fed crickets and mealworms - once a day (about 2-3 crickets when he was healthy). Crickets are gut loaded with Flukers high calcium cricket diet and cricket quencher.

This gutload isn't providing great nutrition. There are much better brands available through forum sponsors (Repashy bug burger, cricket crack, etc).

Supplements - Currently crickets are dusted with Reptivite and "Fred" is being force fed Carnivore Care.

If you are dusting with Reptivite every day you are overdosing him with vitamins and adding to the calcium/vit D3 problems he already has. Vitamin overdoses can create symptoms similar to MBD ironically. So you are not using any supplemental calcium other than the cricket gutload you listed? Probably why he's declining.


Watering - Reptarium is misted at least 3 times a day and also has a dripper. Normally i have not seen Fred drink.
Fecal Description - From what I have seen droppings appeared to be normal, brown/green with white. Has not been tested for parasites.
History - Not at this time.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Currently he is in a 38 gallon Apogee Repatrium screened (16.5 x 16.5 x 30)
Lighting - Using a dual cone with one UVB 13x Reptile tropical light and one UVA Standard Basking light - is on from 8:30am to 9pm every day

I'm not familiar with this UV light. What brand is it and how long have you been using it? Even the correct UV producing bulbs need replacing at about 6 months. Does he ever get exposure to "real" sunlight outdoors?

Temperature - Currently temperature is 80-82 degrees. I use a standard temp gauge. At night it does not get below 78.

That nightime temp is too hot. He's not able to drop his metabolism to rest without a night time temp drop of at least 10 degrees. This will also contribute to the low humidity level in the cage. Too much heat dries everything out faster.

Humidity - The humidity seems to always be at 40 no matter what I do. Apart from the misting and the drip there is nothing else I do . Standard Hum gauge used.
Plants - No live plants used
Placement - Cage is locate in our family room and on top of a small refrigerator as its base. Not really too near any vents or fans that I believe would affect anything but its possible I suppose.
Location - I am located in South Florida

So basically what I believe to be relevant is that I first started out with a standard 20 gallon terrarium that did not have any height, thought it would be ok for a juvenile but then invested in the correct setting (pictures attached). He regrettably did not have the right lighting either, chalk it up to a first time chameleon owner. So I basically blame myself for my poor little guys problems.
I had a huge scare this morning when I fed him the Carnivore Care after about a few minutes he started to convulse and then vomited pretty much everything he ate and also what appeared to be some cricket carcass. He then just shut down - I thought he died - didn't move, turned stiff and just looked dead. But somehow it seemed he was just in a short coma and then woke up again (yay) and is now breathing and awake again like before. However I have him currently in a little box in the reptarium under the lights because he does not have the strength to climb or hold on. Last night he was on the floor as well as this morning but moving.
I took Fred to the vet about 1.5 weeks ago (that is when she gave him the Carnivore Care as well as a medication for pain) She said more then likely it was MBD but could even be gout but to keep administering the Carnivore Care and the med when needed. She actually told me that its pretty good he has lasted this long in my care because she has seen many (95%) juveniles die much earlier.

So the vet did not give you any calcium meds or injections? They are necessary at this point!


He has not really improved and do not know what to do furthermore. Attached are picture of my buddy Fred and his reptarium. Hope you all can provide some insight...

 

[PascalsWager]

I'm still learning myself, and there will be others along to give more help than I can, but I do know his legs look to be very painful. Did the vet x-ray him at all? They appear to be fractured even to my novice eye.

You said he's only getting two to three crickets a day? Again, it may be my lack of experience, but that seems like barely enough to keep him alive. Mine eats 10-12 smalls per day. He's younger than your Fred, but it looks like mine might be larger.

There are several things in his environment that have been discussed on these forums as problematic to chameleons. The substrate, lights inside the enclosure, water dish(?), not enough climbing surfaces, etc.

Check out the links to care sheets and husbandry information. There is a lot of information there free for the clicking.

Hopefully if any of my info is wrong somebody will set me straight. I'm hoping to get a panther someday if I can keep my first veiled alive and healthy. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and Fred. He looks like a sweet little guy. I hope he pulls through!

 

[carol5208]

Oh my he looks in terrible shape. Is that even a male?? If your vet cannot distinguish that this is a very advanced stage of MBD I would find another vet. Did she not give calcium injection and tell you to use calcium? So this is the first time you have had him to a vet? I am sorry but with all the resources out there today, it is really kind of inexuseable to let an animal get in this condition. I may get jumped on for my attitude but man after being on here for 5 yrs it is getting old seeing all these poor chameleons with broken bones. I am sure he is in major pain. Did she xray for broken bones? Agreed with Carlton you are giving him a multivitamin overdose and are just going to add to his problems. Also living in Florida you have the luxury of year round sunshine. Take him outside as much as possible.

 

[kinyonga]

First of all..you need to see a different vet. It's so obvious that it's MBD.

When a chameleon has MBD its important to correct the imbalance by giving it some liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate until the calcium levels are back in line.

You also need to correct your supplements, feed/gutload your insects well, provide appropriate temperatures and a proper source of UVB to keep it from returning.

Read supplements...since most insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous its important to dust the insects with a phosphorous-free calcium powder at most feedings.

To ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it you should dust the insects twice a month with a phosphorous-free calcium /D3 powder. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues.

To ensure it gets the vitamins needed its recommended that you dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. PrEformed vitamin A can build up in the system too so by using a vitamin powder with a prOformed source it won't build up and leaves it up to you to decide if the chameleon needs prEformed or not.

Exposure to the UVB allows the chameleon to produce the D3 needed to use the calcium in the system.

Appropriate temperatures allow for proper digestion and thus indirectly in the nutrient absorption.

Hooe you can get your chameleon back on track...and in the meantime, be careful handling it so it doesn't end up with any more broken bones.

 

[Frodo4eva]

Hi Carol - well, what can I tell you - I feel the same way you do and my love for him and for animals in general breaks my heart. Attitude aside I did not post this thread to be berated simply because of how you feel - I am reaching out to people like you with knowledge in any attempt to help and receive valuable advice.

 

[Frodo4eva]

Thank you Pascal- guess we are in the same boat. My habitat is actually ideal for a chameleon with respect to the items you mention - there are other issues at play here unfortunately as you mention - such as the providing the right diet, etc. I fear though that my chameleon is beyond healing....

 

[Carlton]

Hi Carol - well, what can I tell you - I feel the same way you do and my love for him and for animals in general breaks my heart. Attitude aside I did not post this thread to be berated simply because of how you feel - I am reaching out to people like you with knowledge in any attempt to help and receive valuable advice.

It wasn't meant to be personal. This forum hears so many sad stories about people's sick chams that it wears us down. Sometimes after a series of them some of us vent our frustrations. I know this happens to me and I have to re-charge away from the forum for a little while. With all the decent care information and good quality nutritional products available these days it can be hard to believe how often our favorite creatures end up suffering from preventable disease. We get upset because we are devoted to them too. A lot of our frustration is due to CLUELESS VETS and CLUELESS PET SHOPS who sell these little guys to people without any care information.

 

[Frodo4eva]

Hello Carlton - Thank you for the reply, comments much appreciated. To answer some of your points -
The lights I have a Exo-Terra reptile UVB100 light and a Zoo Med Repti Basking Spot light, it has been less than 6 months since changed.
The night temperature I checked again and you are right, the temp fell 12 degrees. I have not exposed him to direct sunlight because of fear of outdoor critters.
It is difficult to determine the right dosage of supplements and vitamins, everyone seems to have a different opinion of what to administer.
As for the vet, yes - I will be trying to see if I can find a better specialist, however the vet advised me at his size it would be difficult to administer a syringe. She did suggest X-Rays which I may still do but I think it is too late. She provided me a medication called METACAM which was to help with pain and the Carnivore Care for nutrients.

Right now he is very very weak and I simply do not know what else to do. I am giving him water via syringe which he appears to accept and drink and gave him also very little Carnivore Care to see if he would swallow which he did.
I am waiting for the vet to get back to me today.
Appreciate any additional comments.

 

[carol5208]

Well I do apologize. It just makes me sad to see an animal suffer. I know it is counter productive to get on you on what you should have done. With that being said, the sun would be very beneficial. Can't you sit outside with him for a little bit? Better yet bring his cage outside.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Your pictures break my heart.

Seriously, you didn't see the many many fractures he or she has? Did the vet not comment on that?

People may jump on me for saying this, but I'm sorry, but that animal is suffering horribly. This is not a painless disease. Broken bones hurt whatever the cause. I suspect you are causing tremendous pain just trying to get food into it. I wonder if the jaw bones have demineralized as well.

Find another vet, one who knows what they are doing.

 

[sapphira80]

Hi Frodo, I think it's a very good thing that you are here trying to seek advice for helping your chameleon Fred. You admitted in your op that your husbandry was lacking, but you seem willing to correct it, and that's what's important. Please don't take all the comments here personally, it's just difficult for many members to see pictures of sick chameleons, because there are so many. But we do really want to help you.



I think this a summary of the advice everyone agrees on that will help you get Fred better:



1. If possible, he needs to have prescription calcium injections from a vet. These well work wonders for his MBD and quite possibly save his life.



2. Fred needs daily calcium (without D3 or phosphorus) supplement. This comes in a powdered form you can sprinkle on his crickets or carnivore care.



3. Multivitamins only need to be given once a month. Anymore than that and you are overdosing him on Vitamin D3, which binds all the calcium in his body into an unusable form. This can cause MBD by itself, or make existing MBD much, much worse.



4. Fred needs exposure to natural unfiltered sunlight. Even as sick as he is, he needs to go out. Put him in his box and take him on your deck/patio, or put him near an open window in the sun (glass filters UVB so it must be open). Even 30 minutes a day will help.



It is possible to turn MBD around and Fred could live if you take the steps to correct his care. If you have more questions, please ask. I'd also recommend reading the MBD sticky because it has a lot of good info.

 

[Scout]

Ahh man..... Those pictures broke my heart.. I wouldn't wish this onto my worst enemy....