Vitamin A Supplements From Dr. Ivan Alfonso's Blog

[heartben]

Herptivite doesnt give PREformed vitamin A (retinol), instead it provides the safer Beta Carotene.
Some on this forum are unable to keep their animals healthy without small amounts of preformed vitamin A. I am not one of those (only used beta carotene for years without problem) but I would agree that adding a very small amount perhaps 2-4 times yearly could be helpful and would not be harmful. Providing large amounts of pre-formed vitamin A can be toxic. You must also be aware that D and A are antagonistic to each other.
You may find these links useful / informative:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

thanks btw, i think i read one of these awhile ago. ill re read them both and see if i feel any better.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I really don't think a tiny amount a couple times a year would stay around in the lizard long enough to provide much benefit.

Hard to know, since we dont seem to have a solid understanding of how much they might need at all.

As Harry stated it has been known by the founders of the hobby for a long time that Vit A "retinal" was needed, [...]From all I know about toxicology and nutrition I would have to say that the range from deficiency to toxicity is a wide one. And I think it is also fair to say that in the wild some bugs deliver Retinal and some don't. Research has not been done to explain which of these natural food sources are contributing to the Vit A intake. What I can not understand is why Rep-Cal ....

Im not a "founder of the hobby" and I dont publish any books on this subject, but truly my chameleons do get on fine without it. I mean without my having directly supplemented with pre-formed vitamin A. I use the Rep-cal products successfully. No one has been able to explain why my animals are long-lived and healthy despite not supplementing with retinol.

But I suspect simlar to what you've indicated - some of the bugs I use must (if we accept any retinol is needed at all) either convert beta carotene, or the wild insects I use occassionally provide it in some manner (in their eyes, or in their guts or whatever). I do offer a fairly wide range of bugs, perhaps more than most. Either way, in my experience (which some may discount as not being a scientific study and since I've only been with the hobby something over a decade) my panthers dont seem to need supplementation with preformed A.

This topic comes up so frequently, and while it often goes round the same circles I usually find something interesting - seems always to be a new tid-bit of info presented.

 

[kinyonga]

Allen Repashy said..."What is very interesting though is that while this can be partially corrected by lowering the levels of Vitamin A, raising the levels of Vitamin D to a moderate level eliminates the effects Vitamin A has on bone density."....Dr. Lopez has used vitamin D to treat vitamin A toxicosis for years.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
A concern I have with people constantly overdoing the D3 and the prEformed vitamin A by providing it more often than needed is what are they doing to the liver and kidneys of the chameleons? Just because the doses may be creating a balance by overdoing them both and not show outward signs of MBD or other issues doesn't tell us what its doing to the organs.

Also...because people don't generally understand the relationship between D3 and prEformed vitamin A I worry about them overdoing them when they hear that chameleons need both. I also can't count how many times I've tried to explain the differences between prOformed vitamin A and prEformed vitamin A and between D3 from UVB and from supplements.

I still have not had an answer from enough people who do give prEformed vitamin A on a regular basis about how much D3 their chameleons are getting either from supplements or from food sources.

One more thing...
you said..."What we are really talking about here is not vitamin levels, but blood levels, so using the term Vitamin D is a bit of a misnomer since what is really important is the 25OHD3 blood levels (converted vitamin D3 in the body)"...I always use the "term" D3 because it causes less confusion for people who don't understand the whole D3 conversion process....as I'm sure many people on here do.

I know about the test that showed panther chameleons needed prEformed vitamin A because they can't convert beta carotene but I still would like to know why its said "Chameleon yolks contained considerably higher levels of carotenoids than levels previously reported from two viviparous lizard species, and β-carotene concentrations were of the same magnitude as reported in grazing tortoises. β-Carotene and β-cryptoxanthin were the predominant carotenoids in yolk and embryos, comprising about 95% of total carotenoids detected. Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors"...if the eggs can convert the beta carotene, why can't the chameleons??????????

BTW...So far I see nothing wrong with providing small amounts of prEformed vitamin A for chameleons as long as people pay attention to what they are doing.

 

[clarkrw3]

I would really like to thank Allen Repashy for stopping by to weigh in on this topic. It's great to hear what your position is as one of the leading supplement manufacturers.

...I know about the test that showed panther chameleons needed prEformed vitamin A because they can't convert beta carotene but I still would like to know why its said "Chameleon yolks contained considerably higher levels of carotenoids than levels previously reported from two viviparous lizard species, and β-carotene concentrations were of the same magnitude as reported in grazing tortoises. β-Carotene and β-cryptoxanthin were the predominant carotenoids in yolk and embryos, comprising about 95% of total carotenoids detected. Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors"...if the eggs can convert the beta carotene, why can't the chameleons??????????

BTW...So far I see nothing wrong with providing small amounts of prEformed vitamin A for chameleons as long as people pay attention to what they are doing.

I understand what your saying here but... In Embryology it is not abnormal for developing embryos, whether in vivo or in ovo, to have very different metabolic processes than the neonate or adult. I spent years doing stable isotope studies on embryos looking at how placentas transfer amino acids. It is interesting when looking at humans that nutrition given to full term babies will kill extremely low birth weight premature infants (24-28 wk) they just can not process it and need different building precursors to essential amino and nucleic acids. I could write all night about different examples of this that would bore people to death and get far off topic but an example that many people know is that mammal embryos have a completely different form of hemoglobin that has a much higher affinity for O2. This hemoglobin is replaced after birth with "normal" hem.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that it would not surprise me at all if in ovo embryos could break down beta carotene a more stable form of Vit A but once out that would be lost, replaced by retenol a more dietarily available form.

 

[Allen Repashy]

A concern I have with people constantly overdoing the D3 and the prEformed vitamin A by providing it more often than needed is what are they doing to the liver and kidneys of the chameleons? Just because the doses may be creating a balance by overdoing them both and not show outward signs of MBD or other issues doesn't tell us what its doing to the organs.

I wasn't condoning or trying to say that high , but balanced levels are what anyone should use by any means. I DO think however that most people have major misconceptions about what is a high level and what is not.

Also...because people don't generally understand the relationship between D3 and prEformed vitamin A I worry about them overdoing them when they hear that chameleons need both. I also can't count how many times I've tried to explain the differences between prOformed vitamin A and prEformed vitamin A and between D3 from UVB and from supplements.

I agree that most people don't have a grasp on these things and this is the root of many problems. I don't agree with you about the result being over-supplementation though. There are many more cases of hypovitamintosis A seen by vets because people just use supplements with only beta carotene and no Retinol, don't properly feed and gutload their feeders, and don't vary the type of insects they feed. Ask any Herp Vet what they see more..... Vitamin A or D deficiency, or toxicity. There is a Huge difference between your average pet store chameleon purchaser and the experienced members here, and those are the people we need to worry about because they are the ones out there killing all the lizards

I still have not had an answer from enough people who do give prEformed vitamin A on a regular basis about how much D3 their chameleons are getting either from supplements or from food sources.

It IS difficult to balance fat soluble vitamins when they are not used to together. Just the action of them being used on different days can have an effect on their symbiotic relationship. They also have a complex relationship with calcium and it is my opinion that they should all be delivered at the same time in a pre calculated ratio. Not to pimp my goods, but I spent a lot of time developing my calcium plus product to have the correct balances and have levels that can be used on a "dust everytime you feed" level for most species including panther chameleons.

One more thing...
you said..."What we are really talking about here is not vitamin levels, but blood levels, so using the term Vitamin D is a bit of a misnomer since what is really important is the 25OHD3 blood levels (converted vitamin D3 in the body)"...I always use the "term" D3 because it causes less confusion for people who don't understand the whole D3 conversion process....as I'm sure many people on here do.

I agree with you here for sure..... but D3 is still quite again different than 25OHD3, which is the metabolite of D3 after it is absorbed through the gut and metabolized by the liver. And to complicate things further, I am not using D3 in my supplements in favor of a dietary form of 25OHD3 which is more consistently available because it bypasses the steps that D3 need to go through that can have a big affect on absorption efficiency.... such as gut condition that can be effected by hydration and parasites, and liver/renal function issues that could be effected by gout for instance.

I know about the test that showed panther chameleons needed prEformed vitamin A because they can't convert beta carotene but I still would like to know why its said "Chameleon yolks contained considerably higher levels of carotenoids than levels previously reported from two viviparous lizard species, and β-carotene concentrations were of the same magnitude as reported in grazing tortoises. β-Carotene and β-cryptoxanthin were the predominant carotenoids in yolk and embryos, comprising about 95% of total carotenoids detected. Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors"...if the eggs can convert the beta carotene, why can't the chameleons??????????

There is a big difference between utilizing carotenoids, and converting them to retinol and the retinol in the eggs can come from the adult just like any other nutrient does. Many carotenoids are NOT precursors to Retinol for ANY species. There is no doubt that herps can utilize carotenoids for pigmentation, but this has nothing to do with their ability to convert it to retinol IMHO.

I am a HUGE proponent of carotenoids in feeder diets AND Herp diets, but not for their value as precursors to Retinol. Carotenoids have been the focus of hundreds of hours of my research and their health benefits are just beginning to be understood. I have a product on the market that is a carotenoid only supplement.

BTW...So far I see nothing wrong with providing small amounts of prEformed vitamin A for chameleons as long as people pay attention to what they are doing.

I agree with you here, the main point I think that we differ on is what a "small amount" because to me, it is probably a lot more than to you

Again, I want to reiterate that I am not here to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong if it has proven to work for them. A healthy and varied insect diet that is high in carotenoids can go along way to providing retinol to your chameleon.

My main point is that retinol supplement done wisely can have unseen benefits in otherwise "healthy" looking chameleons in the form of an improved immune system and stress response during such times as heavy breeding which can tax the body.

Wow, that was a mouthful!

Allen

 

[Ace]

Awsome discussion my brain feels full now

 

[Allen Repashy]

I would really like to thank Allen Repashy for stopping by to weigh in on this topic. It's great to hear what your position is as one of the leading supplement manufacturers.

Thanks Clark, It does seem strange to me to be referred to as a supplement manufacturer and not a Breeder LOL.

I am not sure how I ended up here but I have enjoyed the ride and it really has become my new passion. I started down this road years ago because I couldn't find any products that worked or fixed my problems at the time so I decided I would have to figure it out myself, with the simple goal of making my animals healthier and better breeders..... and 20 years later, here I am LOL

 

[Ace]

Thanks Clark, It does seem strange to me to be referred to as a supplement manufacturer and not a Breeder LOL.

I am not sure how I ended up here but I have enjoyed the ride and it really has become my new passion. I started down this road years ago because I couldn't find any products that worked or fixed my problems at the time so I decided I would have to figure it out myself, with the simple goal of making my animals healthier and better breeders..... and 20 years later, here I am LOL

Wait.... you are thee Allen Repashy??? that makes the repashy superfoods for all kinds of critters, like crested gecko foods???!!!!!

That is awsome...i feel very stupid not connecting your last name with the product....i must be brain dead tonight lol

i am considering using the surpervite? and calcium +

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I DO think however that most people have major misconceptions about what is a high level and what is not"...so do I.

You said..."I don't agree with you about the result being over-supplementation though. There are many more cases of hypovitamintosis A seen by vets because people just use supplements with only beta carotene and no Retinol, don't properly feed and gutload their feeders, and don't vary the type of insects they feed"..I agree that at the moment there are less cases of hyper than hypo...but just as there was a "trend" to only use beta carotene containing vitamins a while ago, it seems that we are turning around (again) and heading towards using vitamins with prEformed vitamin A more and more and that may reverse the situation.


You said..."It IS difficult to balance fat soluble vitamins when they are not used to together. Just the action of them being used on different days can have an effect on their symbiotic relationship"...using some on the same day can also have an effect on their relationship.

You said..."the retinol in the eggs can come from the adult just like any other nutrient does"...but it says in the abstract that the retinol suggests effective conversion from carotnoid precursers.

You said..."I am not here to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong if it has proven to work for them. A healthy and varied insect diet that is high in carotenoids can go along way to providing retinol to your chameleon"...I realize that.

You said..."Wow, that was a mouthful!"...it was, but so was mine!

 

[fluxlizard]

I just wanted to thank everyone for getting involved in this thread.

I asked for clarification yesterday, but out working last evening I was running it through and saw that kinyongia and sandra had already given me the clarification and I just hadn't grasped it. Sorry about that! I can be a little slow sometimes!

Anyway- I still feel my experience over the long haul using reptivite 1x weekly shows the margin is pretty wide compared to the extreme of a couple times per year.

Alan Rapeshy- I want to especially thank you. I have heard really good things about your knowledge of nutrition from a well published expert in the field that I have a lot of respect for. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your getting involved in this discussion- going out of your way to do so. Most like yourself avoid getting involved in these kinds of topics because of fears of what it will do to their business. I wish the likes of florida chams, screameleons and kammerflauge all of who are members of this forum who are producing chameleons for years and years would weigh in on topics like this and let the general public know what they have found works for them- but I suspect most are too afraid of negative publicity these sorts of debates can bring to their business. So THANK YOU for being someone who knows more than most about nutrition, has worked with thousands of lizards over decades of time, actually weighing in on this topic.

 

[fluxlizard]

I still have not had an answer from enough people who do give prEformed vitamin A on a regular basis about how much D3 their chameleons are getting either from supplements or from food sources.

Here is one for you kinyongia- when I was using reptivite 1x per week for years I was using repcal with d3 every feeding, at first all year and then later when I started moving the lizards outside during the latter part of the 90s I was using only in the winter- in the summer I used plain calcium outdoors.

I never saw a problem from either the rep-cal with d3 or the reptivite. I produced thousands of baby chameleons from a number of species over that decade (veileds, panthers, jacksons, carpets, jeweleds, dilepis, quadricornis, montiums, melleri, oustaletts - I'm sure there are a few others I've forgotten I'm just rambling off the top of my head to illustrate my experience was pretty broad).

In the past I've pointed out that my lighting was not up to todays standards for the most part though. For a while I was using chroma 50s thinking they were uvb producing LOL.

 

[Allen Repashy]

I wish the likes of florida chams, screameleons and kammerflauge all of who are members of this forum who are producing chameleons for years and years would weigh in on topics like this and let the general public know what they have found works for them

Does this help? http://www.store.repashy.com/kammerflage-kreations.html

 

[Allen Repashy]

You said..."I don't agree with you about the result being over-supplementation though. There are many more cases of hypovitamintosis A seen by vets because people just use supplements with only beta carotene and no Retinol, don't properly feed and gutload their feeders, and don't vary the type of insects they feed"..I agree that at the moment there are less cases of hyper than hypo...but just as there was a "trend" to only use beta carotene containing vitamins a while ago, it seems that we are turning around (again) and heading towards using vitamins with prEformed vitamin A more and more and that may reverse the situation.

I think we will find that as, or if, this trend continues, that it will take a long time for the tables to turn and the understanding we will all gain about nutrition and Vitamin A during the course will make it a mute point. Right now, I would say there are a thousand chameleons out there with hypovitamintosis A for every one out there with hypervitamintosis A.

I have done a lot of work in the development of my SuperVite and Calcium Plus to make sure the levels are as safe as possible. There will ALWAYS be exceptions due to varied requirements from species to species, and the only way to sort this out is through trial, error, and people SHARING there triumphs AND tribulations so we can all move forward. Keeping secrets doesn't make any sense to me when lives are at stake.

I will say, and I clearly do on the label, That my Vitamin A Plus is a high potency product and should be used wisely. This product, if overused, CAN cause Hypervitamintosis A.

As a therapeutic product, the stuff can work like a silver bullet to reverse signs of Hypovitamintosis A. A lot of self debate went on in my head about the release of this product, but my conclusion was that it could do a lot to advance our understanding of Fat soluble vitamin requirements.

I think of having the only Retinol Product on the market gives everyone who cares to, the opportunity to do their own homework. By being to keep everything you have been doing constant, and only add Vitamin A, any changes observed will have a clear link to Vitamin A.

Previously to having this, you would have to change your whole multivitamin routine to add A, and then you are adding a lot of variables.

This product is simple a new tool for people to work with that will help us all understand more about nutrition. There will undoubtedly be failures and successes, but without both, we can't move forward.

You said..."It IS difficult to balance fat soluble vitamins when they are not used to together. Just the action of them being used on different days can have an effect on their symbiotic relationship"...using some on the same day can also have an effect on their relationship.

Yes, a positive one!

You said..."the retinol in the eggs can come from the adult just like any other nutrient does"...but it says in the abstract that the retinol suggests effective conversion from carotnoid precursers.

Your mention of the article didn't give any details or a link or full article name so that I could read it. (which I would like to do, so please provide if possible) You didn't say this was the case in your post, but I think clarkrw3 did a great job of answering this question already.

I would also like to interject that I have never said that chameleons, or other insectivores have NO ability to convert some carotenoids to Retinol. I DO however think this ability is limited at best, and not sufficient in most cases to support long term health without the addition of natural dietary, or supplemental Retinol.



Thanks for the enjoyable chat, Allen

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry...I thought that I had posted the link in the previous post....
"β-Carotene and β-cryptoxanthin were the predominant carotenoids in yolk and embryos, comprising about 95% of total carotenoids detected. Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors"...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.10039/abstract

You said..."Right now, I would say there are a thousand chameleons out there with hypovitamintosis A for every one out there with hypervitamintosis A"...with all the chameleons that I've had at the vets and also had necropsies done on, only one came back with hypovitaminosis A...and it was hatched from a WC C. chamaeleon that was bred in her first receptive season with me. The hatchling did not grow much but lived in what looked like good health for a year before she finally died. The odd thing is that at that time I was using Nekton-Rep which had prEformed vitamin A in it.

Its good to hear that you did a lot of research on your product and BTW I've heard nothing but praise for it in the gecko community!

You said..."Keeping secrets doesn't make any sense to me when lives are at stake"...I agree.

You said..."This product is simple a new tool for people to work with that will help us all understand more about nutrition. There will undoubtedly be failures and successes, but without both, we can't move forward."...we always will have successes and failures in order to learn and move forward!

You said..."I would also like to interject that I have never said that chameleons, or other insectivores have NO ability to convert some carotenoids to Retinol. I DO however think this ability is limited at best, and not sufficient in most cases to support long term health without the addition of natural dietary, or supplemental Retinol."...I'm not sure how well they convert it either...but it always makes me wonder why hypovitaminosis A doesn't show up in my chameleons or in their necropsies when I don't use any prEformed vitamin A in the gutloads or in the supplements I give to the chameleons. My veiled females generally live to be over 6 and males even older...and panthers, dwarf jackson's, fischer's species, etc. all seem to have healthy long lives with me too. Maybe someday there will be an answer?

Good to talk to you!

 

[Seeco]

My crickets, mealworms, and flies eat small amounts of cooked and/or powdered animal liver and cooked egg yolk. That will solve all your vitamin A problems (and probably many other vitamin problems) virtually for free. Much harder to overdose. Do you have an egg in the fridge? This is an especially important gutload for hatchlings. They will grow MEGA FAST!!!!

 

[fluxlizard]

I really don't think you give a crap about our animals "lives at stake".

Pay for a site sponsorship or post an add in the classifieds if you want to sell your stuff here.

Folks you can just boil an egg that costs 5 cents and feed the yolk to your insects. Vitamin A solved.

"triumphs and tribulations...." Jeez man I wasn't gonna say anything at all and let you make your money but your dramatic language just pushed me over the edge.

You know this is why people who really really know from experience of actually professionally breeding chameleons over generations and decades on a large commercial scale who have learned what does and does not work in their operations out of necessity to survive as a business and actually produce healthy ahimals for years and years do not participate in threads of any significance such as this one is because of this crap don't you? Because negativity like this can get out of hand and negatively impact business. So some of these people join the forums and say hello from time to time and say they are going to be at such and such show selling chameleons but when it comes to the meat of the forums- stuff like this thread, they stay away to keep away from anything that might stir up controversy that would cause the "net gurus" to negatively impact their business by badmouthing them to the noobs who don't know any better.

I'm not saying that anyones info should be beyond question or rational scientific investigation or debate. They should not. But this kind of nastiness is out of line IMO.

You could suggest boiling an egg and feeding it to the insects as an alternative without personal attacks and insinuations. Backed up by nothing but your fairly outrageous opinion.

As for the boiled eggs- how much usable vit a does a feeder insect have after consuming boiled eggs? How often should the feeder insects be fed vit a to provide enough for the chameleons? Is it the same for all insects?

It's a good tip for a gutload ingredient- but why the hostility towards the other poster? Is it against the rules to spend decades breeding animals, educate oneself as a nutritionist, see a need in the commercial market place and produce products to meet that need and then share the knowledge of that education and experience here on the forums?

99% of what he has been talking about has to do with vit a in general and not only his products.

How about personal attacks? Are those allowed here?

 

[leedragon]

Allen Repashy said..."What is very interesting though is that while this can be partially corrected by lowering the levels of Vitamin A, raising the levels of Vitamin D to a moderate level eliminates the effects Vitamin A has on bone density."....Dr. Lopez has used vitamin D to treat vitamin A toxicosis for years.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
A concern I have with people constantly overdoing the D3 and the prEformed vitamin A by providing it more often than needed is what are they doing to the liver and kidneys of the chameleons? Just because the doses may be creating a balance by overdoing them both and not show outward signs of MBD or other issues doesn't tell us what its doing to the organs.

Also...because people don't generally understand the relationship between D3 and prEformed vitamin A I worry about them overdoing them when they hear that chameleons need both. I also can't count how many times I've tried to explain the differences between prOformed vitamin A and prEformed vitamin A and between D3 from UVB and from supplements.

I still have not had an answer from enough people who do give prEformed vitamin A on a regular basis about how much D3 their chameleons are getting either from supplements or from food sources.

One more thing...
you said..."What we are really talking about here is not vitamin levels, but blood levels, so using the term Vitamin D is a bit of a misnomer since what is really important is the 25OHD3 blood levels (converted vitamin D3 in the body)"...I always use the "term" D3 because it causes less confusion for people who don't understand the whole D3 conversion process....as I'm sure many people on here do.

I know about the test that showed panther chameleons needed prEformed vitamin A because they can't convert beta carotene but I still would like to know why its said "Chameleon yolks contained considerably higher levels of carotenoids than levels previously reported from two viviparous lizard species, and β-carotene concentrations were of the same magnitude as reported in grazing tortoises. β-Carotene and β-cryptoxanthin were the predominant carotenoids in yolk and embryos, comprising about 95% of total carotenoids detected. Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors"...if the eggs can convert the beta carotene, why can't the chameleons??????????

BTW...So far I see nothing wrong with providing small amounts of prEformed vitamin A for chameleons as long as people pay attention to what they are doing.

Maybe the function that breaks down in the body shuts down as it grows or hatches the same way as human shut down their ability to break down lactos when they grow up? Because it is meaning that they should be getting vitamin A as it vitamina A form and not as beta carotene?