Vitamin-A- v.s. Beta-Carotene

[sexpanther]

I have heard so many conflicting stories and reports about the importance of supplementing Vitamin A, its dangers of over-dose and under dose!!! The new trend seems to be using Beta-Carotene instead of Vitamin A which is a anti-oxoidant that gets converted by the body safely into Vitamin A! But from all the lab studies i have read this still does not provide the proper doses of Vitamin A required by adult, esp female Chameleons!!! So one would think thats simple just dose Vitamin A, but Vitamin A is stored in the liver until the body needs to use it, and knowing how much is currently stored is almost impossible! So how does one determine the proper dose with-out over or under dosing??? The factors to consider when dosing vitamin A, how much vitamin A is your animal already getting from its food, how much does it have stored in its liver, how much beta-carotene is being converted into vitamin A, How much does your animal weigh, Male or female (females require a much higher dose for egg development and general health)...and whats the best method of delivering vitamin A, orally, injecting prey, gut loading, etc... I don't expect soild answers but just peoples experence, attempts and or success with supplementing Vitamin A....its pro's or con's....Thank you!!!

 

[Syn]

I believe that Beta Carotene is only turned into how much Vit A the body needs, no more, so there is no risk of overdosing.
However, Preformed Vit A is what can overdose, because it's already made.. Something like that.

Sorry that I can't explain it better.

 

[eppcheck]

I'm guessing this is going to vary depending on age, sex, species, etc...but I am also interested in correct supplementing of Vit A. I've heard people recommend Reptivite once monthly which includes Beta-Carotene, but is that all you need?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

There is speculation as to whether or not chameleons can convert proformed vitamin A (beta carotene) into preformed (from an animal source).
Most of what I have read in veterinary round table discussions and from some breeders, suggests that hypovitaminosis is far more common than hypervitaminosis and therefore, some supplementation of preformed vitamin A would be suggested.
Here's what I have been doing for the last couple of years with no ill effects:

Twice a month I dab on a bit of oil from a punctured fish oil gel cap onto a couple of feeders per chameleon.
I have seen improvement in skin condition and ability to shed successfully, no other obvious benefits ... but as stated, no ill effects either.

-Brad

 

[sexpanther]

Fish oil is great for their skin and shedding i too have had this exact experience! but f,most commerical fish oils contain lil or no Vitamin A!!! Fish oil also works great for impacted animals who consumed dirt and or foriegn objects as well!

 

[sandrachameleon]

Its a debated topic. Excess preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job, and cause other issues. Pre-formed Vitamin A is very easy to overdose with, its a fine line between helpful and toxic.

I dont provide preformed vitamin A to my chameleons, and they are fine, healthy and long lived. But I also gutload well and provide a wider range of feeder choices than perhaps most.

The majority of people seem to think its important to provide a small amount of preformed A, occassionally. Especially those who primarily only offer crickets as a feeder.

Provision of Preformed A can be done in many different ways. My suggestion is to feed it to the bugs, then let the chameleon get it through them, rather than direct dosing. You could also get an oral preparation made by a vet, base on your animals weight. Be extremely cautious of using oils. Consider instead the gutload route or infrequently using a dust that contains it.

Remember also that D3 figures into this, because vitamin A and D3 are antagonistic to each other.

more info

https://www.chameleonforums.com/food-thought-12472
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/chame...nt-want-21534/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/serio...tml#post199819
https://www.chameleonforums.com/carrots-vit-23572
http://jgp.rupress.org/cgi/reprint/47/3/433.pdf
https://www.chameleonforums.com/vitamin-scares-me-12395/
http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1796&aid=3027
https://www.chameleonforums.com/insec...trients-37090/

 

[camshaft]

I gutload my crickets with vitamin A via greens. I supplement with Beta-Carotene once a month as part of the multi-vitamin (rep-cal).

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I have a copy of a round table discussion on this topic conducted by Ardith Abate, I will review it this evening and extract some quotes to post here.
If I recall correctly gut loading was a big part of this discussion and spirulina was mentioned as either part of the gutload or a dusted supplement.
Spirulina contains beta carotene and preformed A.

-Brad

 

[draetish]

Here is a thread that has some good info in it for your review.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/vitamin-32518/

 

[sandrachameleon]

Spirulina contains beta carotene and preformed A.

WOOT!
For all the times I've asked questions on this forum about Preformed A, this is the first time I've heard this! And if true, it potentially explains why my chameleons somehow survive just fine without preformed A supplmentation or the use of animal products - I peridoically use spriulina in gutload.

Brad do you have a detailed breakdown/anaylsis of the nutritional components of Spriulina you could share with me?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

From Dr. Rob Coke, DVM, senior staff veterinarian at the San Antonio Zoo ... (or at least he was in 2003)

"Spirulina is a microscopic fresh water plant that is a highly absorbable source of protein, essential amino acids, gamma linolenic acid, vitamins B12 and E, beta carotene and vitamin A. It has been used for years as a natural herbal dietary supplement for humans as well as in the avicultural community. Spirulina may be used as a supplement for chameleons but it's true effects on dietary requirements has not been researched and is therefore unknown."

That's all I got

-Brad

 

[draetish]

Since I didn't exactly know what "spirulina" was I checked it out and found this information. I sounds all good except the high amt of protein. I'm not saying yay or nay, just posting. How or what type of method do you gutload with? Fresh, a pill, powder or how do you buy it?

Protein
Spirulina contains an unusually high amount of protein, between 55% and 77% by dry weight, depending upon the source. It is a complete protein,[4] containing all essential amino acids, though with reduced amounts of methionine, cysteine, and lysine when compared to the proteins of meat, eggs, and milk. It is, however, superior to typical plant protein, such as that from legumes.[5][6]

[edit] Essential fatty acids
Spirulina is rich in gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), and also provides alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), linoleic acid (LA), stearidonic acid (SDA), eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), and arachidonic acid (AA).[6][7]

[edit] Vitamins
Spirulina contains vitamin B1 (thiamine), B2 (riboflavin), B3 (nicotinamide), B6 (pyridoxine), B9 (folic acid), vitamin C, vitamin D, and vitamin E.[6][7]

[edit] B12
The bioavailability of vitamin B12 in Spirulina is in dispute. Several biological assays have been used to test for the presence of vitamin B12.[8] The most popular is the US Pharmacopeia method using the Lactobacillus leichmannii assay. Studies using this method have shown Spirulina to be a minimal source of bioavailable vitamin B12.[9] However, this assay does not differentiate between true B12 (cobalamin) and similar compounds (corrinoids) that cannot be used in human metabolism. Cyanotech, a grower of spirulina, claims to have done a more recent assay, which has shown Spirulina to be a significant source of cobalamin. However, the assay is not published for scientific review and so the validity of this assay is in doubt.[10] The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada in their position paper on vegetarian diets state that spirulina can not be counted on as a reliable source of active vitamin B12. [11]

[edit] Minerals
Spirulina is a rich source of potassium, and also contains calcium, chromium, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, selenium, sodium, and zinc.[6][7]

[edit] Photosynthetic pigments
Spirulina contains many pigments including chlorophyll-a, xanthophyll, beta-carotene, echinenone, myxoxanthophyll, zeaxanthin, canthaxanthin, diatoxanthin, 3'-hydroxyechinenone, beta-cryptoxanthin, oscillaxanthin, plus the phycobiliproteins c-phycocyanin and allophycocyanin.[1]

[edit] Considerations and Potential Dangers
Spirulina contains phenylalanine, which should be avoided by people who have the metabolic disorder phenylketonuria, where the body cannot metabolize this amino acid and it builds up in the brain causing damage. [12] Because Spirulina is a dietary supplement, the United States Food and Drug Administration does not regulate the production and quality of the product. Although rare, cyanobacteria like Spirulina may contain toxins called microcystins, which accumulate in the liver and can potentially cause cancer or other liver diseases. Currently, no standard exists to regulate the safety of Spirulina. [13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement)

A serving size of 6 Earthrise 500 mg Tablets (3 g) contains:

Protein 1.7 g (4% DV). Including of Alanine (144 mg), Arginine (141 mg), Aspartic acid (195 mg), Cystine (18 mg), Glutamic Acid (297 mg), Glycine (96 mg), Histidine (30 mg), Isoleucine (102 mg), Leucine (174 mg), Lysine (99 mg), Methionine (39 mg), Phenylalanine (87 mg), Proline (78 mg), Serine (96 mg), Threonine (96 mg),Trytophan (27 mg), Tyrosine (81 mg), Valine (114 mg)
Carbohydrates 0.5 g
Fats 0.2 g
Vitamins including Vitamin A 4000IU (80% DV), Vitamin K (17 mcg), Thiamine B1 (0.03 mg), Riboflavin B2 (0.06 mg), Niacin B3 (0.35 mg), Vitamin B12 2.8 mcg (45% DV)
Minerals in an easy-to-absorb form including Calcium (7 mg), Iron 1.5 mg (8% DV), Magnesium (7 mg), Zinc (45 mcg), Manganese (50 mcg), Copper (12 mcg), Chromium (<15 mcg),Sodium (15 mg), Potassium (40 mg)
Phytonutrients including Phycocyanin (420 mg), Polysaccharides (200 mg), Sulfolipids (40 mg), SOD (5000 Units), Chlorophyll (30 mg), Gamma Linolenic Acid (30 mg), Linoleic Acid (27 mg), Mixed carotenoids (8 mg), Lutein (1.5 mg)
http://www.relfe.com/spirulina_health_benefits.html

 

[kinyonga]

Brad said..."Spirulina contains beta carotene and preformed A"...are you sure there is prEformed A in it?? I used to think it did too until I understood vitamin A better and realized that spirulina is algae.....so I looked it up and this is what I found...

"Spirulina is nature’s richest whole food source of beta-carotene (pro-vitamin in A) and is 25 times richer than carrots. Unlike the preformed vitamin A of synthetic and fish liver oils, its beta-carotene is completely non-toxic even in mega doses."...
http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleid=492243

 

[sandrachameleon]

I phoned a couple of local nutrition supplement stores. They confirmed there is no pre-formed A in spirulina. It has lots of carotenes though, which are readily converted by humans (and we dont know for sure about chameleons) into Vitamin A.

draetish, I buy it as a powder, which I include in my dry gutload mix from time to time. I've even used it, in combination with a vitamin supplement, to dust on crickets a few times over the year. I consider the protein a good thing.

 

[Todnedo]

WOOT!
For all the times I've asked questions on this forum about Preformed A, this is the first time I've heard this! And if true, it potentially explains why my chameleons somehow survive just fine without preformed A supplmentation or the use of animal products - I peridoically use spriulina in gutload.

Brad do you have a detailed breakdown/anaylsis of the nutritional components of Spriulina you could share with me?

do you use powdered milk in your gutload?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Brad said..."Spirulina contains beta carotene and preformed A"...are you sure there is prEformed A in it?? I used to think it did too until I understood vitamin A better and realized that spirulina is algae.....so I looked it up and this is what I found...

"Spirulina is nature’s richest whole food source of beta-carotene (pro-vitamin in A) and is 25 times richer than carrots. Unlike the preformed vitamin A of synthetic and fish liver oils, its beta-carotene is completely non-toxic even in mega doses."...
http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleid=492243

My assumption was based on the information I had that stated it included beta carotene AND vitamin A.
I will defer to any current research.

-Brad

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Dr coke was my personal vet in Houston before being appointed head vet at San Antonio. He has bred chams for many years. Btw, we are talking about the same spirulina we feed to our salt water fish correct? Ive never thought to add it to my gutload. Thank you that will be added on occasion.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Oh and Dr Coke is still @ San Antonio Zoo. He also is head of Brazos Texas Herp Society i believe.

 

[sexpanther]

Texas Panther Man, i have a 200 gallon sps reef tank!!! Be very careful using any SALT OR FRESHWATER FISH FOOD as gutload as it contains high levels of COPPER and other anti-parasitic compounds meant for fish. not sure how a chameleon and or your crickets will do if they consume this as well! Better to get algae strips with spirlina or strait spirlina...

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Thank you. Should i go to health food store and get that?