Warning About New Madagascar Quota Species

[Motherlode Chameleon]

To be honest, this entire argument is completely pointless. You can try to claim our track record is whatever you want, but ultimately the numbers don't lie and we need to do better. If lulling yourself into the belief that our track record is good or even acceptable motivates you to walk the walk, great. I personally fail to see how denial benefits us as a community and prefer to try to learn from the past so that we can try to improve in the future.

Chris

Chris

No it is not pointless and I concur with you I think F10 Calumma parsonii parsonii or Calumma parsonii critifer is the goal we should be striving for in Europe, Asia or North America. As well progress is progress and should be a continual goal and we should not be satisfied with F3 or F5 species or the current importation system with CITES for that matter. The Chameleon Forums being a world community has an advantage that the CIN can never match though. It can create a community and direct network between accomplished breeders in North America to skilled breeders in Europe and Asia. I think to make the most out of this we have to have ideals, stay somewhat open mind and stay positive about breeding. Continuing and making progress includes improving from past breeding results. I am just much more of an optimist than most it appears.

I think the main concern of everyone is that after twenty years we have an opportunity that is truly great. Just try not to knock it before it has started. Your using the word fail way to much.

Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Todnedo]

Hogwash you much less experienced than me and again you show you are only are out for your own interests as always and your not that great of a breeder. You cannot even put what species you have bred? I have been a part of a program that has produced a captive bred Parsonii in the 1990's. You have not. Again I try to make amends with you however your not worth it. I am ready for the new Madagascar species.

Jeremy A. Rich

Back in the 90's anybody could buy a wild caught gravid Parsons for 50 bucks. Just because you knew someone that hatched a few don't make you a Parsoni breeder. Look at how many were hatched, a small hand full and less than that since then.
I wish you luck in breeding these new species. Everyone will be watching and waiting for you to produce but I really don't think you understand the difficulties involved.
These will be a quite bit harder to breed than the grasshoppers you sell care sheets for.

 

[eisentrauti]

As has been stated multiple times in this thread by multiple individuals, there can be plenty of breeders/keepers, but if they aren't putting together large enough groups to actually have a viable breeding colony, they are not going to be successful long term in establishing most of these species. Again, no matter how many breeders/keepers there are, if the species aren't being established long term, it is not changing our long term track record.
Chris

That is the main point and in my opinion it will make the decision between the next failure in establishing species or a small step on the right way.
As I stated before, the limiting factors are mainly space and money. So if the quotas go to the typical mass importers they will sell the animals to the person paying the highest price and not to the person with the vast amount of knowledge and the ability to meet the requirements for keeping those species.
I don't know the prices on which those species will appear on the stocklists yet but I'm guessing that the pricetags will be huge especially when comparing the quality of Madagascar WC animals to WC animals from others countries (based on my own experiences)
So I'm quite sure that parsonii as an example will get a 500-xxxx$ price tag on the stocklists which is ok regarding the small quota and the resell value BUT it won't help to get bigger groups to single keepers.
The asked price from the importers will be huge and I'm quite sure that many of the animals will end up as single show animals or pairs at their new place. And that's the point where everything will fail again.
So I hope that there are some persons here on this forums with import experience from Madagascar and that those persons are willing to share this opportunity with other reliable members who know what they do. I know that Americans don't like groups like that (some would probably call it communism) but the amount of people having enough knowledge/space/money is just too small.
Such attempts have to be well planed otherwise they will fail. Because if let's say 5 persons import 10 parsonii/oshaughnessyis together there will be always animals arriving dead/nearly dead/in bad condition.
I hope that people will take this chance as the rare opportunity it is. If somebody thinks about buying those animals while living somewhere in Texas without a basement or a giant ac unit just stop about dreaming because it wont work. And if somebody thinks about buying those species but the pocket isn't deep enough to buy several animals, don't do it because it won't work.
I know that Americans tend to have this "can do" attitude more often than most of us Europeans but it won't help here.
So everybody interested should ask him/herself:
- do I have enough experience ?
- do I have enough space and can I meet the required temperatures especially during the night ?
- do I have the right amount of time to monitor them, hand feed, spray them for hours, especially after their arrival ?
- do I have the money to buy a reasonable group of animals ?
- and if all those points are positive, how sure can I be that they won't change during the next months.

 

[eisentrauti]

And before I forget them:

Aren't the campanis the perfect argument for my points ? I don't have exact numbers of how many entered the US (is there sth like a database for this ?) but I can't remember many/any success stories, despite the fact that the animals were even sold on reasonable prices (so it must have been possible for keepers to acquire more than the typical one pair/keeper ratio)
I don't want to sound negative again but if somebody would have taken them as some kind of "model species" whether quotas make sense or not, then there won't be a thread like that around because there won't be any quotas for those difficult species again

 

[kameleons jvo]

That is the main point and in my opinion it will make the decision between the next failure in establishing species or a small step on the right way.
As I stated before, the limiting factors are mainly space and money. So if the quotas go to the typical mass importers they will sell the animals to the person paying the highest price and not to the person with the vast amount of knowledge and the ability to meet the requirements for keeping those species.
I don't know the prices on which those species will appear on the stocklists yet but I'm guessing that the pricetags will be huge especially when comparing the quality of Madagascar WC animals to WC animals from others countries (based on my own experiences)
So I'm quite sure that parsonii as an example will get a 500-xxxx$ price tag on the stocklists which is ok regarding the small quota and the resell value BUT it won't help to get bigger groups to single keepers.
The asked price from the importers will be huge and I'm quite sure that many of the animals will end up as single show animals or pairs at their new place. And that's the point where everything will fail again.
So I hope that there are some persons here on this forums with import experience from Madagascar and that those persons are willing to share this opportunity with other reliable members who know what they do. I know that Americans don't like groups like that (some would probably call it communism) but the amount of people having enough knowledge/space/money is just too small.
Such attempts have to be well planed otherwise they will fail. Because if let's say 5 persons import 10 parsonii/oshaughnessyis together there will be always animals arriving dead/nearly dead/in bad condition.
I hope that people will take this chance as the rare opportunity it is. If somebody thinks about buying those animals while living somewhere in Texas without a basement or a giant ac unit just stop about dreaming because it wont work. And if somebody thinks about buying those species but the pocket isn't deep enough to buy several animals, don't do it because it won't work.
I know that Americans tend to have this "can do" attitude more often than most of us Europeans but it won't help here.
So everybody interested should ask him/herself:
- do I have enough experience ?
- do I have enough space and can I meet the required temperatures especially during the night ?
- do I have the right amount of time to monitor them, hand feed, spray them for hours, especially after their arrival ?
- do I have the money to buy a reasonable group of animals ?
- and if all those points are positive, how sure can I be that they won't change during the next months.

I agree with you Benny

 

[rshewfel]

And before I forget them:

Aren't the campanis the perfect argument for my points ? I don't have exact numbers of how many entered the US (is there sth like a database for this ?) but I can't remember many/any success stories, despite the fact that the animals were even sold on reasonable prices (so it must have been possible for keepers to acquire more than the typical one pair/keeper ratio)
I don't want to sound negative again but if somebody would have taken them as some kind of "model species" whether quotas make sense or not, then there won't be a thread like that around because there won't be any quotas for those difficult species again

The number one driving factor for everything we do in the United States is money. This is a sad but undeniable truth. Breeding chameleons is a time consuming, expensive hobby. At the end of the day, if you can't sell your chameleons for a profit, it is very hard to maintain a long term project. For these new species, a huge majority of the market will be breeders and long time chameleon enthusiasts. The reason there has been very little success with campani, is because of the low prices and the ease of obtaining them. There are just not enough people who want them. Without a public market, it is very unlikely any species will be established. So breeders are not motivated to produce them. Seeing as how the import quotas for the new species are the same as campani or higher, I am pretty sure that their fate will be the same. Even for parsonii, when the price drops, less people will want them. There is just not enough demand for these species here.

You should see our reptile shows here. In Colorado, which is probably a little worse than most places, the shows consist mostly of genetically mutated ball pythons. The shows are pathetic. As a life long reptile lover, even I don't want to pay the $10 cover charge. Unfortunately, this is the road I see chameleons going. The future of chameleons in the US will most likely be mutated Panthers and Veileds. The public wants the pretty panthers, and the cheap veileds. That is what they will get.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Many keepers want Parsons because they are "cool" "rare" and "expensive". Aside from experience level, very few of them would actually be able to house them with the proper temperature environment with seasonal change. It is easy to be overconfident if you have kept chameleons for many years, but if you have not kept and bred multiple montane species in captivity, like quadricornis, deremensis, kinyongia, etc. you will be in for a disappointment. I have bred two of the above and am working with kinyongia presently. None of them have been especially easy to establish a stable breeding colony and I've found that they prefer temps even cooler than published literature suggests especially at night.

I wish good luck to those who give it a go.

 

[fluxlizard]

The number one driving factor for everything we do in the United States is money. This is a sad but undeniable truth. Breeding chameleons is a time consuming, expensive hobby. At the end of the day, if you can't sell your chameleons for a profit, it is very hard to maintain a long term project. For these new species, a huge majority of the market will be breeders and long time chameleon enthusiasts. The reason there has been very little success with campani, is because of the low prices and the ease of obtaining them. There are just not enough people who want them. Without a public market, it is very unlikely any species will be established. So breeders are not motivated to produce them. Seeing as how the import quotas for the new species are the same as campani or higher, I am pretty sure that their fate will be the same. Even for parsonii, when the price drops, less people will want them. There is just not enough demand for these species here.

You should see our reptile shows here. In Colorado, which is probably a little worse than most places, the shows consist mostly of genetically mutated ball pythons. The shows are pathetic. As a life long reptile lover, even I don't want to pay the $10 cover charge. Unfortunately, this is the road I see chameleons going. The future of chameleons in the US will most likely be mutated Panthers and Veileds. The public wants the pretty panthers, and the cheap veileds. That is what they will get.

I think this is pretty much true.

As I have read this thread the past few days, the questions that keep arising in my mind are:

what changes going forward would make things different?

for that matter-

Can we even identify the reasons for failure in establishing breeding groups over many generations for certain?

I'm not convinced we even know why we have failed.

What are the variables at play that might need changing to get new improved results?

This is why I'm not convinced- there are many variables.

I tend to lean towards nutritional deficiency that we are unaware of, many seem to have the opinion that the difficulty arises from not enough large breeding groups- and I certainly agree with that premise as well.

Also I can tell you after having sold many lizards of all sorts to individuals who purchase with the intention of breeding them some day, the huge majority loose interest by the time the lizards are mature and ready to breed- most enthusiastic individuals end up selling or trading their lizards away for the next interest that comes along. I was very surprised to see this occur with the melleri I produced and sold here on the forums a few years back as they were kind of pricey.

And then of course there is price- most of the chameleons we have "failed miserably at" nobody has really even made a serious effort at because the price point is too low. It discourages professional attempts by making them money loosing propositions on large scale (small scale you can still move some at a higher than imports price, the larger the scale the more the price has to compete with the imports to move so many). The price point of many of these species has encouraged impulse purchase by beginners. I just checked and can stock up on senegals this week for $12.50 each. You aren't going to get many people developing the herpetoculture for lizards that are so cheap. So- my point is price has also been a reason for failure.

Then I've got a friend who feels like maybe we are failing in incubation. Incubation could possibly effect the lizards and we wouldn't know it until their eggs (the eggs of the individuals who hatched from artificial incubation then matured and bred and produced their own eggs, once again incubated under artificial conditions and so on generation to generation) start failing in larger and larger numbers. I don't know how valid that point of view is, but the friend is a veterinarian who knows a lot about herps and has quite a bit of chameleon experience.

And then there is the idea that if we all just got more disciplined, kept better records and tried harder. I'm just not convinced the problem is that simple because of some of the comments from those who tried and failed. We've got a large scale pardalis breeder here on the forums with one of the largest operations for these lizards in the states convinced that pardalis can't keep going without fresh wild blood continually put into the captive gene pool... And then you've got Abate giving up and she took a presumably (from the high quality of the CIN articles) a very disciplined approach and still failed. To me, that doesn't make sense unless something like diet or incubation technique is messing with the DNA or causing some deficiency in some nutrient that is passed in decreasing amounts each generation from mother to egg...

The point is, I'm not sure failure is entirely from a lack of trying. I sure intend to give things a go as if that is the problem and hope that is the case though. Don't get me wrong. My interest is in developing self sustaining lizard populations, but these guys failures has me feeling a bit nervous about my prospects with chameleons over the long term...


***

Sort of shifting vantage points, and probably politically incorrect in some ways, but-

What are the reasons for wanting change in the success rate? Is it protection of these species in the wild? Is it prevention of their loss to future generations of terrarium lovers? Is it prevention of suffering from wild collected individuals? Is it to advance the herpetoculture of these species resulting in the usual selective breeding for development of special traits such as abnormal eye popping coloration or man made color morphs, etc?

And then once we have the answers to the above questions, my next question is- are we even going about this in the most effective way then?

For example- if conservation is the goal, wouldn't it make the most sense to continue importation on a limited licensed scale with some sort of taxation at the point of collection with the funds used to manage habitat and protect habitat from development? Maybe proper management at the point of collection, with more humane collecting and holding and transport methods would make more sense to focus on from a conservation point of view? If we could produce a million parsons here in America, I'm not convinced it would do as much for conservation as collecting a managed sustained harvest number in their native land, taxing the collection heavily, and using the money to manage and protect habitat. Part of that management of course would be keeping tabs on how many are out there and how many can be removed and under what age to keep the wild population healthy.

If the goal is simply to benefit the hobby and ensure these species aren't lost to it, and to promote humane conditions for the animals, maybe the most sense would be to set up large scale breeding operations at point of origin (madagascar). This has been done successfully for other species that were struggling at some point and ensured the survival of the species (on the farms at least (bleh!) and their availability often for multiple uses such as pets, food, leather- examples that pop to the front of my mind include green iguanas, american alligators, asian water monitors, chrondopythons. I'm not convinced that these are the most humane conditions, but there again chameleons are a bit different in their response to crowding and such, and humane conditions could be corrected with legalities and licensing.

I don't know- just some random thoughts this morning.
No answers, just questions and random thoughts...

What I really wish is that someone would go do a bunch of lab type work on wild chameleons so we really know what they are made of and have that to compare with captive animals when it comes to blood work, etc, so we could do some more serious tweaking of diet and supplementation...

 

[leedragon]

If I may ask again, who is going to get any of the chameleons that will be coming?

 

[Mike Fisher]

Can we even identify the reasons for failure in establishing breeding groups over many generations for certain?

IMO it is because only the strongest survive in the wild, whereas we are keeping alive all of them and after a few generations, the genetics are not strong enough to continue. Also, there is a "lack of struggle" in captivity. That will weaken any species, even human.

 

[kameleons jvo]

Another problem is showing up,i just talked to Olaf Pronk with the question when the first animals will be send out of Madagascar and his answer was this:

Olaf Pronk :Not certain yet, the quota have not been distributed over the exporters yet and I suspect this will take at least another two months. It is winter then in Madagascar and I hope that exporters will be so wise to wait until after the first rains before they ship chameleons, as animals are not in shape to be exported during the cold months here.

This means if they start sending during the winter months mortality will be way higher,i hope the exporters will take the right decision....

 

[Todnedo]

Another problem is showing up,i just talked to Olaf Pronk with the question when the first animals will be send out of Madagascar and his answer was this:

Olaf Pronk :Not certain yet, the quota have not been distributed over the exporters yet and I suspect this will take at least another two months. It is winter then in Madagascar and I hope that exporters will be so wise to wait until after the first rains before they ship chameleons, as animals are not in shape to be exported during the cold months here.
This means if they start sending during the winter months mortality will be way higher,i hope the exporters will take the right decision....

Some of the calumma Species will be gravid as well, not a good time for shipping stress.

 

[eisentrauti]

IMO it is because only the strongest survive in the wild, whereas we are keeping alive all of them and after a few generations, the genetics are not strong enough to continue. Also, there is a "lack of struggle" in captivity. That will weaken any species, even human.

In my opinion that's the only point where we won't get any problems (maybe beside calyptratus which are so unbelievable hardy in comparison to other chams)
Within all other species weak chameleons die just too fast to do any harm in terms of getting bad genetics/bloodlines.

 

[sandrachameleon]

This has been a good thread. both thought provoking and entertaining (argument/drama).

 

[fluxlizard]

IMO it is because only the strongest survive in the wild, whereas we are keeping alive all of them and after a few generations, the genetics are not strong enough to continue. Also, there is a "lack of struggle" in captivity. That will weaken any species, even human.

While this is true and another variable to add to the list of possibilities, I guess my question is why is this not having the same problem for non-chameleon lizards as well? I suppose this question could be asked for any of the items on my list though..

I thought of another one as well- what about the plastics that we surround them with? Food dishes, insects raised in plastic containers, baby chameleons raised in plastic containers, drinking water off of the sides of storage tubs, etc. Most of these insect rearing containers and baby chameleon tubs are not even food grade containers. Then there is the incubation of the eggs in plastic containers.

Here is a true scary story- a few years ago I needed lots more containers for incubating bearded dragon eggs. I had not purchased new containers in many years and did not think to rinse these new containers (should have looked at the outer wrapper- the label clearly said to rinse them before use). These are food grade storage containers. I started having clutch after clutch after clutch fail on me about 4-6 weeks in- they started sweating and oozing and then dying, one egg after another. I panicked wondering if GMO ingredients in the food or insect food was causing the problem (hey add that to the list of variables!), wondered if something weird was going on with my perlite so I started dropping water weight in my substrate to compensate and try to stop the weeping, without much luck. Wondered if maybe my males were messed up from the great miracle grow perlite misadventure a few years previous where I unintentionally used miracle grow perlite in some eggs and ended up hatching 100% males from those clutches. I used these males as part of a feeding trial and ended up keeping many of them for breeding stock. So I wondered if those miracle males were no good as breeders. I can tell you it was pretty horrible trying to figure out what was going on because every day brought another clutch failure. Finally I figured out that I had not adequately rinsed the new containers- only given them a quick rinse. I started thoroughly rinsing the containers prior to use and then the problem disappeared to my great relief.

But ever since that incident I really wonder what tiny amounts of things from plastic end up in our animals- especially over long periods of time and the potential long term multi-generational effect on them...

 

[Mike Fisher]

I started thoroughly rinsing the containers prior to use and then the problem disappeared to my great relief.

But ever since that incident I really wonder what tiny amounts of things from plastic end up in our animals- especially over long periods of time and the potential long term multi-generational effect on them...

Good point, there is a release agent applied to the molds that transfers to the part being made. Even further still, all plastic will out-gas the plasticizer that keeps it flexible usually dioctyl adipate (DOA) over time. Many times plastic is cured with isocyanate curative that never fully crosslinks and will out-gas with time. Isocyanates are very harmful to life.

One huge reason that I do not ever use completely airtight incubation boxes and use small fans in my incubators because the concentrations could become quite high inside closed boxes.

 

[rshewfel]

I think this is pretty much true.

As I have read this thread the past few days, the questions that keep arising in my mind are:

what changes going forward would make things different?

for that matter-

Can we even identify the reasons for failure in establishing breeding groups over many generations for certain?

I'm not convinced we even know why we have failed.

What are the variables at play that might need changing to get new improved results?

This is why I'm not convinced- there are many variables.

I tend to lean towards nutritional deficiency that we are unaware of, many seem to have the opinion that the difficulty arises from not enough large breeding groups- and I certainly agree with that premise as well.

Also I can tell you after having sold many lizards of all sorts to individuals who purchase with the intention of breeding them some day, the huge majority loose interest by the time the lizards are mature and ready to breed- most enthusiastic individuals end up selling or trading their lizards away for the next interest that comes along. I was very surprised to see this occur with the melleri I produced and sold here on the forums a few years back as they were kind of pricey.

And then of course there is price- most of the chameleons we have "failed miserably at" nobody has really even made a serious effort at because the price point is too low. It discourages professional attempts by making them money loosing propositions on large scale (small scale you can still move some at a higher than imports price, the larger the scale the more the price has to compete with the imports to move so many). The price point of many of these species has encouraged impulse purchase by beginners. I just checked and can stock up on senegals this week for $12.50 each. You aren't going to get many people developing the herpetoculture for lizards that are so cheap. So- my point is price has also been a reason for failure.

Then I've got a friend who feels like maybe we are failing in incubation. Incubation could possibly effect the lizards and we wouldn't know it until their eggs (the eggs of the individuals who hatched from artificial incubation then matured and bred and produced their own eggs, once again incubated under artificial conditions and so on generation to generation) start failing in larger and larger numbers. I don't know how valid that point of view is, but the friend is a veterinarian who knows a lot about herps and has quite a bit of chameleon experience.

And then there is the idea that if we all just got more disciplined, kept better records and tried harder. I'm just not convinced the problem is that simple because of some of the comments from those who tried and failed. We've got a large scale pardalis breeder here on the forums with one of the largest operations for these lizards in the states convinced that pardalis can't keep going without fresh wild blood continually put into the captive gene pool... And then you've got Abate giving up and she took a presumably (from the high quality of the CIN articles) a very disciplined approach and still failed. To me, that doesn't make sense unless something like diet or incubation technique is messing with the DNA or causing some deficiency in some nutrient that is passed in decreasing amounts each generation from mother to egg...

The point is, I'm not sure failure is entirely from a lack of trying. I sure intend to give things a go as if that is the problem and hope that is the case though. Don't get me wrong. My interest is in developing self sustaining lizard populations, but these guys failures has me feeling a bit nervous about my prospects with chameleons over the long term...


***

Sort of shifting vantage points, and probably politically incorrect in some ways, but-

What are the reasons for wanting change in the success rate? Is it protection of these species in the wild? Is it prevention of their loss to future generations of terrarium lovers? Is it prevention of suffering from wild collected individuals? Is it to advance the herpetoculture of these species resulting in the usual selective breeding for development of special traits such as abnormal eye popping coloration or man made color morphs, etc?

And then once we have the answers to the above questions, my next question is- are we even going about this in the most effective way then?

For example- if conservation is the goal, wouldn't it make the most sense to continue importation on a limited licensed scale with some sort of taxation at the point of collection with the funds used to manage habitat and protect habitat from development? Maybe proper management at the point of collection, with more humane collecting and holding and transport methods would make more sense to focus on from a conservation point of view? If we could produce a million parsons here in America, I'm not convinced it would do as much for conservation as collecting a managed sustained harvest number in their native land, taxing the collection heavily, and using the money to manage and protect habitat. Part of that management of course would be keeping tabs on how many are out there and how many can be removed and under what age to keep the wild population healthy.

If the goal is simply to benefit the hobby and ensure these species aren't lost to it, and to promote humane conditions for the animals, maybe the most sense would be to set up large scale breeding operations at point of origin (madagascar). This has been done successfully for other species that were struggling at some point and ensured the survival of the species (on the farms at least (bleh!) and their availability often for multiple uses such as pets, food, leather- examples that pop to the front of my mind include green iguanas, american alligators, asian water monitors, chrondopythons. I'm not convinced that these are the most humane conditions, but there again chameleons are a bit different in their response to crowding and such, and humane conditions could be corrected with legalities and licensing.

I don't know- just some random thoughts this morning.
No answers, just questions and random thoughts...

What I really wish is that someone would go do a bunch of lab type work on wild chameleons so we really know what they are made of and have that to compare with captive animals when it comes to blood work, etc, so we could do some more serious tweaking of diet and supplementation...

Seriously, how many people have really had long term successes or failures? I'll tell you right now, I have had neither. When I did this before, I jumped around from reptile to reptile. Not that this is what everyone did, but I personally have not witnessed many people give that valiant of an effort. Not to offend anyone, but I take everything people say with a grain of salt. There are so many people that are completely full of it, and rumors start so easily.

How many generations are veileds at? No one knows this answer. Dooley seams to be doing well with lateralis. I refuse to just take the word of the few. I believe this is the reason the hobby has advanced so little. A reputable person says something, people take it as a law and don't experiment. There are so many factors that can come into play, the few long term successes and failures there have been can not be ignored but also should not be taken very seriously.

 

[eisentrauti]

I believe this is the reason the hobby has advanced so little. A reputable person says something, people take it as a law and don't experiment. There are so many factors that can come into play, the few long term successes and failures there have been can not be ignored but also should not be taken very seriously.

No. There's NO room for experiments with chameleons. And if somebody who keeps and breeds them successfully says sth it should be seen as a low. And you know why ? Because this person belongs to the unbelievable small amount of people doing it right.
The reason why the hobby has advanced so little is a mixture of ignorance/money driven motives/the fact that chameleons in general are the most difficult to keep reptiles

 

[rshewfel]

No. There's NO room for experiments with chameleons. And if somebody who keeps and breeds them successfully says sth it should be seen as a low.

Well I normally like your input but this makes no sense at all to me. How do you think think the successful individual came up with his or her approach in the first place? Oh, and show me someone successful and I might listen. I don't know if you noticed, but pretty much all that is available captive bred here in the US is veileds and panthers

The reason why the hobby has advanced so little is a mixture of ignorance/money driven motives/the fact that chameleons in general are the most difficult to keep reptiles

I agree these are contributing factors.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

This is a heated topic but the information brought up on all sides is an excellent debate on this very important issue. But personal insults or other offenses to the rules will be deleted. Just a warning.