Warning About New Madagascar Quota Species

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This is a warning about the new Madagascar chameleon quota species. Many of you are going to see (especially in North America) many new Calumma and Furcifer species for sale. These species are extremely neat and exotic species. However they are not beginner species similar to Furcifer pardalis, Furcifer lateralis, Furcifer ousaleti or even a somewhat more advanced Furcifer verrucosus. Many of these species and almost all of these species were not bred in the USA/North America before the CITES 1995 ban. Some or most could be said to be on a difficulty level of breeding that is close to or on par with Parsons Chameleon. When these chameleons become available take care with your choices for purchases as this even holds true in regard to the Furcifer species on this list.

To start the conversation the Parsonii like chameleons to the best of my knowledge are the most difficult to breed (Calumma parsonii and oshaughnessyi). The next are the Elephant Eared Chameleons in regards to difficulty breed are Calumma malthe and brevicornis. Then lastly before I stop is Furcifer petteri, willsii and bifidus. I have heard Furcifer antimena was not overly difficult to breed along with Calumma nasutum and boettgeri. However I have heard a lot of conflicting claims.

These chameleons before the ban were known for their difficulty to captive breed. Some of the best breeders in North America during the early 1990's had limited accomplished results with these species. If you are considering to buy a pair or two you should prepare for a challenge/demanding task if you want to breed these species.

 

[ataraxia]

With such low quota's (I would like to see them at zero, personally) if these dont fall into the right hands they are doomed. I dont see the reason to import these animals in the fashion they are unless large groups fall into the right hands, right off the bat. Hands that have intentions on making the species at hand available to the industry C/B. Mark my words, if not done like this every single one of these species will be doomed.......

Look at how leopard geckos, ball pythons, bearded dragons, some monitors are even in existence in the trade today. It took a few people acquiring decent sized groups to kick the species off to the trade.

Its absolutely disgusting to watch this happen and cant do a single thing about it. Just one dead animal after the next till they are all gone, then for what really? Just to say we kept a rare species...One time.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

With such low quota's (I would like to see them at zero, personally) if these dont fall into the right hands they are doomed. I dont see the reason to import these animals in the fashion they are unless large groups fall into the right hands, right off the bat. Hands that have intentions on making the species at hand available to the industry C/B. Mark my words, if not done like this every single one of these species will be doomed.......

Look at how leopard geckos, ball pythons, bearded dragons, some monitors are even in existence in the trade today. It took a few people acquiring decent sized groups to kick the species off to the trade.

Its absolutely disgusting to watch this happen and cant do a single thing about it. Just one dead animal after the next till they are all gone, then for what really? Just to say we kept a rare species...One time.

They seem to be conservative quotas and these species have been proven to be able to be kept long term and capable of being captive bred in Europe by European keepers. These imports are not being managed by unregulated black market industries. These managed quotas, if they are shown to be excessive, detrimental or non sustainable to chameleon populations, CITES can change the quota next year or remove that species from the export quota list. Most all of these species are listed at the lowest listing (Least Concern) or the second lowest listing (Near Threatened) by the IUCN Red List. The main world organization that assesses which species are considered a threatened or endangered species or not. These quotas are a huge step up from unregulated black market trade in the hobby that everyone seems to have settled with and it is long over due.

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[leedragon]

I really agree with you both, I hope those espicies cost as much as a parson so people would think twice before buying them, I hope that people look at their home and see that they have enough chamelons already instead of buying them, think of the time, money and space, many of this species will live for more than 10 years, can the buyer commit to such a long term?

I really hope people get those, and commit to them so we can start seem success threads about them

 

[kameleons jvo]

With such low quota's (I would like to see them at zero, personally) if these dont fall into the right hands they are doomed. I dont see the reason to import these animals in the fashion they are unless large groups fall into the right hands, right off the bat. Hands that have intentions on making the species at hand available to the industry C/B. Mark my words, if not done like this every single one of these species will be doomed.......

Look at how leopard geckos, ball pythons, bearded dragons, some monitors are even in existence in the trade today. It took a few people acquiring decent sized groups to kick the species off to the trade.

Its absolutely disgusting to watch this happen and cant do a single thing about it. Just one dead animal after the next till they are all gone, then for what really? Just to say we kept a rare species...One time.

I agree with you the species who end up in inexperienced hand will all die very fast.
The one that ends up in experienced hand will live a bit longer but they will find out breeding will be a huge disillusion for most of the species so also these will disappear.

 

[kameleons jvo]

This is a warning about the new Madagascar chameleon quota species. Many of you are going to see (especially in North America) many new Calumma and Furcifer species for sale. These species are extremely neat and exotic species. However they are not beginner species similar to Furcifer pardalis, Furcifer lateralis, Furcifer ousaleti or even a somewhat more advanced Furcifer verrucosus. Many of these species and almost all of these species were not bred in the USA/North America before the CITES 1995 ban. Some or most could be said to be on a difficulty level of breeding that is close to or on par with Parsons Chameleon. When these chameleons become available take care with your choices for purchases as this even holds true in regard to the Furcifer species on this list.

To start the conversation the Parsonii like chameleons to the best of my knowledge are the most difficult to breed (Calumma parsonii and oshaughnessyi). The next are the Elephant Eared Chameleons in regards to difficulty breed are Calumma malthe and brevicornis. Then lastly before I stop is Furcifer petteri, willsii and bifidus. I have heard Furcifer antimena was not overly difficult to breed along with Calumma nasutum and boettgeri. However I have heard a lot of conflicting claims.

These chameleons before the ban were known for their difficulty to captive breed. Some of the best breeders in North America during the early 1990's had limited accomplished results with these species. If you are considering to buy a pair or two you should prepare for a challenge/demanding task if you want to breed these species.

Exept of Nasutum and Boettgeri ALL OTHERS SPECIES ARE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO BREED!
Reality will hit very hard and very soon but all of you will experience very soon.

 

[Jscott0731]

in all honesty i would love to see some of the species being talked about availble in the pet trade CB of course but i know its not to likley for most of them... here to hoping a great breeder/ group of breeders get these guys and not just any novice that put two leopard geckos together and is calling himself a breeder

Edit sorry did not mean to reply to one individual comment but rather the thread as a whole

 

[Psychobunny]

What about those who are not interested in breeding.
What will be the difference in basic husbandry between these, rarer species
and furcifer pardalis?
Not that I, myself am particularly interested, but if these become available
to the US pet trade, how will people know their proper care, since few will
have any experience to train the owners.
People seem to have a hard enough time caring for f. pardalis properly, and
there is tons of good husbandry practice available.

 

[Saldarya]

I would imagine that cost will deter the majority of keepers.

That being said, what might be interesting as we get closer to these animals coming into the hobby would be for those who do understand the care needs of these animals to begin to discuss these animals needs openly, perhaps in the genus specific forums.

The only down side I could see is that if people can read a 'care sheet', they may get the false impression that they can provide the care needed.

I guess in general my thoughts are, if they are coming, it would behoove the hobby to do all it can to help make sure the care info is out there.

 

[brownie64]

wild caught

I personally think that all chameleons should first be given to experienced breeders to try and maintain a captive bred population for the pet trade. Captive bred have a much better chance of survival, and you're not taking the animals out of their true habitat. If a captive bred colony cannot be done then they shouldn't be taken out of the wild. Our love for these beautiful creatures is understandable. However we must put them first above our own desires. My two cents.

 

[laurie]

I will say the members here who are advising great caution, need for the rest of us to listen carefully! If a person wants to work with one of the seldom seen species, they should commit fully. Don't buy one pair and hope for success. Unless you are prepared and have the resources to purchase a minimum of 3 pair, don't get them. Very likely you would just be dooming the chams you buy.

I have committed to bringing cb quads to the US. I am giving some of my quad babies to the others who are working toward the same goal that I am. I could sell them but would rather see us get cb quads available here.

What I am saying is, think before you buy. These are not trophy chameleons, they need to be the basis of a breeding program. Start talking others with the goal being several of you working with the same chams so you can get bloodlines going to further that chams availability in the US.

Just needed to add my opinion on how these chams coming in for the first time, should be viewed,

 

[Olimpia]

I will say the member here who are advising great caution, need for other to listen carefully! If a person wants to work with one or the seldom seen species, they should commit fully. Don't buy one pair and hope for success. Unless you are prepared and have the resources to purchase a minimum of 3 pair, don't get them. Very likely you would just be dooming the chams you buy.

Laurie, I was going to write the same thing! The people that buy them shouldn't be "trying to breed," they should be fully committed to that goal. Investing a serious amount of money into a group, setting up a support group of a few other individuals who have the same goal, and investing into serious housing. Definitely not just getting a pair and crossing your fingers, like you said. That's the only way I would approach these species as well, invest in serious infrastructure and a sizable group, and prepare for the long-haul. Which is how I hope those interested in these species approach them!

Because I'd hate for people, with experience or not, to get a hold of two just to add them to a list of rare and exotic experience and just let it go discretely by when they die/fail for whatever reason, like it never happened. When you're working with a total amount of 200-300 individuals, every single one is precious.

 

[kameleons jvo]

Laurie, I was going to write the same thing! The people that buy them shouldn't be "trying to breed," they should be fully committed to that goal. Investing a serious amount of money into a group, setting up a support group of a few other individuals who have the same goal, and investing into serious housing. Definitely not just getting a pair and crossing your fingers, like you said. That's the only way I would approach these species as well, invest in serious infrastructure and a sizable group, and prepare for the long-haul. Which is how I hope those interested in these species approach them!

Because I'd hate for people, with experience or not, to get a hold of two just to add them to a list of rare and exotic experience and just let it go discretely by when they die/fail for whatever reason, like it never happened. When you're working with a total amount of 200-300 individuals, every single one is precious.

Totally agree with that

 

[Psychobunny]

I agree, a colaborative, scientific approch should be taken.
The total population will be too small to risk.

 

[DGray]

I also agree with what has been said here as a caution.

So a rational approach would be for a group of keepers to choose a species and form a breeding association for that species; they would keep a stud book, trade information, and hopefully, someday trade offspring.

In my case, only montane species are appropriate, so I will not be looking to start a group with these Madagascan sp.

 

[Trace]

I’m glad there is a dialogue started about these new species and I certainly agree with what is being said so far. There are some things to consider first; who is going to regulate getting these species into “experienced” hands? Who deems someone experienced? Why are we not saying this about the thousands of other imports every year like Flapnecks and Senegals? Why is there that dichotomy? Our track record with establishing chameleons in captivity long term is abysmal.

The keeping of animals, not just reptiles, is purely money driven. It is the second largest illegal trade in volume after narcotics. Anybody with 2000 bucks can buy a Parsons whether they can keep it alive or not. There will be honest dealers or breeders out there that will send their animals to caring homes but there will always be the people who are in it to make a buck and there will always be people who buy these animals purely for status.

 

[Dooley1]

Tracey-check your Facebook

 

[Psychobunny]

I would think that unless the import is organised and controled by a wildlife
conservation organization, once they hit the open US market, anything goes!

There will always be people out there with more money than good sense, and would be very happy to buy simply to have something "different".

How many species of animals, plants, insects are "lost" in the US because of
greed and stupidity and lack of any sort of control?

 

[leedragon]

I am interested in knowing who already is going to participate in this, and what species and plan to keep them in captivity

 

[Carlton]

Why are we not saying this about the thousands of other imports every year like Flapnecks and Senegals? Why is there that dichotomy? Our track record with establishing chameleons in captivity long term is abysmal.

Completely agree with this, though I could also offer a partial (and maybe feeble [in your eyes] excuse on behalf of the cham community)...

We have to start somewhere, and possibly some of us will be goaded into a coordinated action by the very small quota situation and the rarity value of the Mada species. I am NOT saying that flapnecks and Senegals are not worthy of attention! But maybe because these species don't seem to have the same sort of management advantage they are harder to address.

Now, like many of us, I would be very tempted to commit to breeding these "new" species but know better than to try. My cham experience is not based on successful breeding, but on husbandry and housing design, rescue and rehab. I do not have the local vet support or even very good feeder availability to take on less understood species here.

But, if reality changed so I ever felt it possible I'd just about kill for some F. willsii and F. bifidus!!! Just have a thing for rostrals though I've only met one of each in person.