water causing edema?

[Oliviabryant]

What exactly do you mean by this statement? The ratios listed are calcium to phosphorus so are you saying it's too much calcium?

I'm saying is the ratio wether its to much calcium or to much phosphorus, if its not correct it could be an issue. Although I think in the long run its also a matter of sensitivity. Just like some get cancer and some don't

It could also be that some feeders store these supplements quite well and overdose the chameleon

 

[Oliviabryant]

yes and I agree that some are more prone to developing it that others. Like humans...why do some get diabetes and some don't or cancer for that matter? If you have 5 chameleons and they are all fed the same and one gets edema...well why didn't all of them if it is a vitamin overdose or whatever.

EXACTLY ! I think this is a factor as well

 

[juice28]

Unless some are sensitive to water i dont think it is from tap or even well water. I have seen this with various species and im fairly certain it is one of two things causing it.

1. Ca/p ratio is not correct within the body.
or
2. Not keeping the cage floor/leaves clean enough with neonates causing an infection.

In the past i have been guilty of both and from time to time i would see what the picture is showing at that age. I have to learn from trial and error. Since then i make sure i have plain calcium on 90% of feedings along with a clean cage floor/vines and have not had an issue since. Also, not to freak you out. The life expectancy is 50/50 with the neonates showing these signs.

ive read and heard that its a 50/50 shot of her making it....well she needs vet to see if the ration is right cuz i cant test that lol but i dont use anything but straight calc. no D3 and no other supplements...not even for the feeders but i do keep her cage very clean, i miss a poop every now and then cuz it falls between the plants but i check it daily and clean up any water still on the cage floor when i get home , i clean the feeder cup twice a day...not saying this cant be the cause but damn lol.. if i spent any more time on it id be sterilizing it one piece at a time and putting it back together piece by piece a couple time a day lol.

but i will increase my routine. it has actually gone down a bit since that pic was taken early last week but still there.. shes not sleeping at odd times..well she does go to bed at around 830 which is a half hour before lights out but thats actually almost been like clockwork since day one so that seems pretty normal for her

what do/did you use to clean your plants off? and how often? for neonates? i use a basic dial water mix in a spray bottle and spray the plants down every cpl days and rinse um off

 

[Chameleopatrick]

That's...bold. Considering most of the people starting out with chameleons only have calcium with D3 and use that multiple times a week for weeks or months on end until we correct them and do not see any evidence of edema I do not think the results will be what you're hoping for. This experiment has pretty much been performed through misinformation many times already. If D3 was the only factor we'd see it much more frequently.

Sometimes "bold" exposes new truths and dispels the old truth.
Knowing the truth would be great wouldn't it?

I'll put a 100.00 on it. That's how certain I am of the results. We will choose impartial national brands.

We have the ability to prove something. Not who's right or wrong, but what is right for their nutritional requirement. Part of it anyway.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and bet you, we can prove that D3 supplementation will be the primary cause for what we see as gullar edema.



Unfortunately I suspect it's more common than people will admit.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Patrick - then what do you say to all the accidental experiments using your proposed method?

I'm saying is the ratio wether its to much calcium or to much phosphorus, if its not correct it could be an issue. Although I think in the long run its also a matter of sensitivity. Just like some get cancer and some don't

It could also be that some feeders store these supplements quite well and overdose the chameleon

Well what is "correct"? What we know is the blood value of cal to phos needs to be at least 2:1 in the blood stream, but since the body can remove excess calcium in the food it is uncommon to see the cal to phos ratio excessively high based on a high cal diet unless it's a reproductively active female working on producing eggs.

 

[Oliviabryant]

Patrick - then what do you say to all the accidental experiments using your proposed method?



Well what is "correct"? What we know is the blood value of cal to phos needs to be at least 2:1 in the blood stream, but since the body can remove excess calcium in the food it is uncommon to see the cal to phos ratio excessively high based on a high cal diet unless it's a reproductively active female working on producing eggs.

I'm certainly not a dr but I would say 2:1
I can't quite connect feeder nutuonal value, gut loading and the body processing these but I feel like its something to really take into consideration.
Would you disagree ?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Nope I don't disagree with the possibility of this ratio playing a role. But I think you're thinking too linearly because clinically we don't see gutloading of 14:1 cause blood levels of 14:1. I did bloodwork on my panther and veiled last month. Veiled was 2.12:1 cal to phos and panther was 1.87:1 cal to phos but I use collards and mustards as my primary staples most of the time. So it's not a completely direct relationship. I do suspect that calcium may very well play a role, but it's not quite that simple unfortunately.

P.S. Juice - I am sorry we do not have the exact answer for you. Increased hydration and sunlight and limiting the phosphorus content of foods has worked for me in my situations of gular edema, but you can see that it didn't for Carol. We just do not know enough about it to be able to say "do this" or "don't do this" with any certainty. But the discussion that is currently playing out is an excellent step to learning exactly that type of info!!

 

[juice28]

I have a female panther that has edema and I believe it was brought on by a primary item. Overdose of Vit A. It was suggested by a breeder to do so, which again I believe attributed.

That being said, I fed the same feeders to all of my Chams, and only she ever showed the symptoms.

My point is, some chams my be more susceptible to these slight issues than others. You may have a cham who is very sensitive to overdosing via supplementation.

It comes and goes.

In the first picture you post where you say you had just recived here, it seems you can see the start of the edema. Perhaps she came to you with the condition? If that is the case, as many here have testified to, it seems nearly impossible to get rid of it, it just varies in intensity day to day.

Clearly the water thing has you concerned. With all of the reef tanks you kept, you dont have a RO/DI? just curious, For the small amount of water you need for the one cham, it may be worth buying just a DI canister. May be cheaper than bottled water over time.

Just wanted to share my thoughts on the causes that I feel caused my issues.

Bobby

ive always wanted a rodi system lol for my tanks..carrying water is a pain but i dealt with the same store so much id get 50 gal of fresh RODI water for 5 bucks so i didnt mind it but honestly ill admit it..(glad this isnt a SW reef forum lmao, i hardly do h2O changes.. and just top off mainly). thats on my mixed reef but.. i have very few fish..mainly 98% coral dominated, and my mantis shrimp tank was a nano as well as my octopus tank, i had to keep his tank PERFECT! but ive recently relocated to NM from MD so i broke down all my tanks and basically gave away complete set up for dirt cheap b/c i couldnt move my stuff and them and where im at now in BFN...the rental property doesnt have a good place to put one itd have to go under the kitchen sink which is actually still pretty small are to house one.. im actually looking into a DI canister.. might be able to set it up in the bathroom

 

[juice28]

P.S. Juice - I am sorry we do not have the exact answer for you. Increased hydration and sunlight and limiting the phosphorus content of foods has worked for me in my situations of gular edema, but you can see that it didn't for Carol. We just do not know enough about it to be able to say "do this" or "don't do this" with any certainty. But the discussion that is currently playing out is an excellent step to learning exactly that type of info!!

very true, and i kinda knew i wasnt going to get a black n white, this is it answer, i just wanted some ideas to work with which are starting to come in really good now on a dif not i had no idea that this thread would end being so deeply discussed...this is my first post ive made that ever went past 2 pages lol so i feel pretty good. and your right trial and error is pretty much what im doing/going to do, i was just looking for a slight direction other than the water thing i heard about. i though about increasing her natural sunlight intake but that would require more handling and im still not on the fence with handling her so much at such a young age. i decreased her temps to about 75-78.. its kinda fluctuating and its actually gone down a bit over the course of the day(go figure lol)

 

[Oliviabryant]

Nope I don't disagree with the possibility of this ratio playing a role. But I think you're thinking too linearly because clinically we don't see gutloading of 14:1 cause blood levels of 14:1. I did bloodwork on my panther and veiled last month. Veiled was 2.12:1 cal to phos and panther was 1.87:1 cal to phos but I use collards and mustards as my primary staples most of the time. So it's not a completely direct relationship. I do suspect that calcium may very well play a role, but it's not quite that simple unfortunately.

P.S. Juice - I am sorry we do not have the exact answer for you. Increased hydration and sunlight and limiting the phosphorus content of foods has worked for me in my situations of gular edema, but you can see that it didn't for Carol. We just do not know enough about it to be able to say "do this" or "don't do this" with any certainty. But the discussion that is currently playing out is an excellent step to learning exactly that type of info!!

Ooo! That's very helpful thank you for the info. That will help narrow it to some degree. I think between everyone's knowledge we should be able to narrow it down a bit more. I like that everyone is feeding into this conversation I feel like everyone has a very valid point to make and it's helpful to all reading.

What do you feed your chams? And how often of each feeder ?
I know Isopods usually have 11-12 times the phosphorous but I'm not sure on how many people use them as feeders

 

[juice28]

Ooo! That's very helpful thank you for the info. That will help narrow it to some degree. I think between everyone's knowledge we should be able to narrow it down a bit more. I like that everyone is feeding into this conversation I feel like everyone has a very valid point to make and it's helpful to all reading.

I agree and my sponge of a brain is working overtime to process it and expand on what im reading so i an figure out what going on with my lil girl...funny thing is..im supposed to be trading her in for a boy next weekend if he has some ready b/c SHE is suppose to be a HE and i paid for a HE... but shes grown on me and i feel like shes in better hands with me than there with a bunch of other babies that need to be taken care of as well....LMAO...maybe he'll give me a discount if i get an actual male

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Ooo! That's very helpful thank you for the info.

One of the few times we have some good data to use!

What do you feed your chams? And how often of each feeder ?

Primarily crickets every othet day with some supers, horns, some wild hoppers gutloaded for a day and soon some butters. Non crickets are a few times a week or less (except for Oscar who gets a super a day for his meds). Gutload: staple of either collard greens or mustard greens primarily with a little red leaf lettuce and kale occasionally. Looking for turnip greens and cactus but locally hard to find. Papaya, mango, hibiscus, some cricket cricket, bug burger, and brewers yeast have been added periodically but not regularly. I've been dusting with Repcal (100% phos free oyster shell calcium carbonate) without d3. I've used Repashy Calcium Plus as my multivitamin very few weeks. Mister is RO water (from the glacier water machines at stores) and dripper is tap water and we have moderate hardness water.

 

[juice28]

sounds yummy

 

[ataraxia]

Carol please dont take what im about to say wrong or think anything of it out of context. Your boy more than likely has kidney issues from prolonged incorrect husbandry issues from the past owner. My boy Hulk came to me with edema also. I have tried many tricks to cure this issue but the best i can do is limit his feeder intake to help it and even with this i can only cure it for periods of time. I suspect this also happens with your boy. We cant take our experiences from our boys into account here as we dont know what truly started our boys problem. I suspect the house fire my boy was in caused his but truly its hard to say. Your boys could have been from several reasons also but we cant shake a stick at it for sure or even correct it for sure as we dont know what was the initial cause. Once they have this issue its hard to keep it at bay.

Chameleopatrick: Here is a link to a study that is done with supplements. I havent read the article in a while but i dont remember any recordings of edema in the groups being supplemented D3. Its not the case for chameleons younger than 3 months. https://www.chameleonforums.com/supplements-uvb-tid-bit-57687/

To the op: I would have to know more details and to be honestly, be there seeing what has happened with my own eyes. I dont use soap on the baby cages. I simply wash the leafs/vines off with water and place paper towel on the floor to catch the feces and urates. Im not saying it can only happen in filthy conditions. If this is indeed the cause, this can happen with a decently clean cage with unseen feces on a leaf or even from freshly dropped feces on the ground.

 

[Oliviabryant]

One of the few times we have some good data to use!



Primarily crickets every othet day with some supers, horns, some wild hoppers gutloaded for a day and soon some butters. Non crickets are a few times a week or less (except for Oscar who gets a super a day for his meds). Gutload: staple of either collard greens or mustard greens primarily with a little red leaf lettuce and kale occasionally. Looking for turnip greens and cactus but locally hard to find. Papaya, mango, hibiscus, some cricket cricket, bug burger, and brewers yeast have been added periodically but not regularly. I've been dusting with Repcal (100% phos free oyster shell calcium carbonate) without d3. I've used Repashy Calcium Plus as my multivitamin very few weeks. Mister is RO water (from the glacier water machines at stores) and dripper is tap water and we have moderate hardness water.

It has to be a genetic trait more than anything. I really wish there were an answer !

 

[pamnsam94]

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth on this subject. I've been following the whole edema thing for over 20 years and I definitely have my opinions. When I first started reading this post, I sort of felt like I must be in the Twilight Zone because, unless I'm mistaken, I believe many causes of edema have, for the most part, already been determined though a combination of collective "experimentation", controlled studies, and shared similar experiences.

Edema is generally seen as a symptom of organ (kidneys and/or liver) malfunction or permanent organ damage. The organ malfunction/damage can be caused by dehydration, too much D3 or too much preformed vitamin A among other things.

In my experience (mostly with montane species) and the experiences of many others, most instances of edema are due to hypervitaminosis D3 rather than hypervitaminosis A, as was previously thought in the early days of the Chameleon Information Network. However, as the editor of the CiN and author of the articles on hypervitaminosis A, John Annis, in conjunction with a veterinarian (forgot his name) demonstrated through a controlled study, too much preformed vitamin A alone can cause organ malfunction/damage resulting in edema.

At the end of the second article, they concluded that most commercially reared crickets did not contain enough preformed vitamin A to cause edemas. Overdose of other vitamins, D3 especially, became suspect.

Trioceros montium neonates raised by John Annis quickly developed edemas when fed non-supplemented commercially bred crickets, something I experienced with Trioceros johnstoni and T. melleri. I recall Rob Trenor of RK Reptiles experienced the same thing with CH melleri many years ago. These cases are not isolated. Many cricket foods/chows that a lot of cricket suppliers use contain both preformed vitamin A and D3. In the case of the T. montium, even when the crickets were fed a diet free of vitamin fortified foods for a period of two weeks, neonates still developed edemas, suggesting the crickets can store fat soluble vitamins in their tissues for at least 2 weeks.

Today, many commercial gutloads for crickets are available. some contain too much D3 and/or preformed vitamin A for some species. In my opinion, unless you know what gutloads a particular cricket supplier uses, you are taking a risk of over-supplementing, especially with D3 and especially with montane species. Keep in mind that most commercial gutloads are fortified with vitamins. Many if not most of those gutloads have preformed vitamin A and D3 added, which, by the way, may account for those keepers who have had success raising neonates without supplementing with preformed vitamin A, a vitamin generally considered important in increasing egg viability and for producing strong babies.

Since crickets can store fat soluble vitamins, I don't think it's valid to claim that, "because I don't use powdered supplements containing D3, D3 could not have caused an edema in my chameleon." I'd have to ask, "What do you gutload your feeders with (whole foods or vitamin fortified foods containing D3?) and what did the supplier of your feeders use to gutload their insects with before they were shipped to you?" Too much D3 can't be ruled out unless you know the answers to these questions.

Primarily because vets see way more cases of hypovitaminosis A than they do hypervitaminosis A, I believe preformed vitamin A is most often not the cause of most reported edemas.

Perry

 

[KellysChameleons]

I have a couple chameleons that also have struggled with edema ...what I've noticed is it seems to act up with protein ...I have a seperate bin for their feeders which are only gut loaded with fresh fruits and veggies , no bug burger cricket crack or anything like that and it has solved the problem for me ..now one day I accidentally grabbed the wrong feeders for them and there were major edema issues in them once again ,especially since those feeders had been given things like almonds and bug burger the night before ...just thought I'd throw this out there and get some opinions

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth on this subject. I've been following the whole edema thing for over 20 years and I definitely have my opinions. When I first started reading this post, I sort of felt like I must be in the Twilight Zone because, unless I'm mistaken, I believe many causes of edema have, for the most part, already been determined though a combination of collective "experimentation", controlled studies, and shared similar experiences.

Edema is generally seen as a symptom of organ (kidneys and/or liver) malfunction or permanent organ damage. The organ malfunction/damage can be caused by dehydration, too much D3 or too much preformed vitamin A among other things.

In my experience (mostly with montane species) and the experiences of many others, most instances of edema are due to hypervitaminosis D3 rather than hypervitaminosis A, as was previously thought in the early days of the Chameleon Information Network. However, as the editor of the CiN and author of the articles on hypervitaminosis A, John Annis, in conjunction with a veterinarian (forgot his name) demonstrated through a controlled study, too much preformed vitamin A alone can cause organ malfunction/damage resulting in edema.

At the end of the second article, they concluded that most commercially reared crickets did not contain enough preformed vitamin A to cause edemas. Overdose of other vitamins, D3 especially, became suspect.

Trioceros montium neonates raised by John Annis quickly developed edemas when fed non-supplemented commercially bred crickets, something I experienced with Trioceros johnstoni and T. melleri. I recall Rob Trenor of RK Reptiles experienced the same thing with CH melleri many years ago. These cases are not isolated. Many cricket foods/chows that a lot of cricket suppliers use contain both preformed vitamin A and D3. In the case of the T. montium, even when the crickets were fed a diet free of vitamin fortified foods for a period of two weeks, neonates still developed edemas, suggesting the crickets can store fat soluble vitamins in their tissues for at least 2 weeks.

Today, many commercial gutloads for crickets are available. some contain too much D3 and/or preformed vitamin A for some species. In my opinion, unless you know what gutloads a particular cricket supplier uses, you are taking a risk of over-supplementing, especially with D3 and especially with montane species. Keep in mind that most commercial gutloads are fortified with vitamins. Many if not most of those gutloads have preformed vitamin A and D3 added, which, by the way, may account for those keepers who have had success raising neonates without supplementing with preformed vitamin A, a vitamin generally considered important in increasing egg viability and for producing strong babies.

Since crickets can store fat soluble vitamins, I don't think it's valid to claim that, "because I don't use powdered supplements containing D3, D3 could not have caused an edema in my chameleon." I'd have to ask, "What do you gutload your feeders with (whole foods or vitamin fortified foods containing D3?) and what did the supplier of your feeders use to gutload their insects with before they were shipped to you?" Too much D3 can't be ruled out unless you know the answers to these questions.

Primarily because vets see way more cases of hypovitaminosis A than they do hypervitaminosis A, I believe preformed vitamin A is most often not the cause of most reported edemas.

Perry

That right there is experience!
Thank you.

 

[carol5208]

Carol please dont take what im about to say wrong or think anything of it out of context. Your boy more than likely has kidney issues from prolonged incorrect husbandry issues from the past owner. My boy Hulk came to me with edema also. I have tried many tricks to cure this issue but the best i can do is limit his feeder intake to help it and even with this i can only cure it for periods of time. I suspect this also happens with your boy. We cant take our experiences from our boys into account here as we dont know what truly started our boys problem. I suspect the house fire my boy was in caused his but truly its hard to say. Your boys could have been from several reasons also but we cant shake a stick at it for sure or even correct it for sure as we dont know what was the initial cause. Once they have this issue its hard to keep it at bay.

Chameleopatrick: Here is a link to a study that is done with supplements. I havent read the article in a while but i dont remember any recordings of edema in the groups being supplemented D3. Its not the case for chameleons younger than 3 months. https://www.chameleonforums.com/supplements-uvb-tid-bit-57687/

To the op: I would have to know more details and to be honestly, be there seeing what has happened with my own eyes. I dont use soap on the baby cages. I simply wash the leafs/vines off with water and place paper towel on the floor to catch the feces and urates. Im not saying it can only happen in filthy conditions. If this is indeed the cause, this can happen with a decently clean cage with unseen feces on a leaf or even from freshly dropped feces on the ground.

No worries John. Honestly I am shocked my chameleon is still alive. If it were organ failure though don't you think he would be long dead? I have had him 17 months and the previous owner said he had it for atleast 1 1/2 yrs prior. I have given up on trying to cure it basically. I just feed him and don't use much supplements, just plain calcium here and there. Funny thing was yesterday the edema was completely gone and I tried to think if anything hit me as being different in the last few days to maybe cause the change, but couldn't come up with a dang thing!

 

[ataraxia]

Scroll down to the "gular" part and what the blood work results are. http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/01/health-section-f-gout_28.html

Im sorry guys/gales but it is not going to be hypervitaminosis in a young panther such as this. Maybe in an adult but not a baby, sorry. The only option i can explore with this possibility is organ defect straight from the egg.

I have had this with my own neonates before and i can say 100% it is not from too much d3 or vitA.

Carol: I was worried you would take it wrong. I dont always say things in the right way, as she tells me a lot! Its frustrating isnt it! Id imagine it depends on the level of damage or time subjected to whats causing the issue to the organ to say how long it will function for life.